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Author Topic: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?  (Read 5479 times)

Calvi

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China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« on: April 06, 2008, 05:51:39 pm »
As you know, Olympic games are becoming an important political issue, because International Community would like to force China to respect human rights better.

Some people would like to boycott these games, others will do other actions to stand up for their point of view, but don't want to boycott these games.

What do you personnaly think about that issue? What should be done? Should Olympic Games be use for political issues?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 05:53:18 pm by Calvi »
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Quaqa

Re: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2008, 06:17:56 pm »
As you know, Olympic games are becoming an important political issue, because International Community would like to force China to respect human rights better.

Some people would like to boycott these games, others will do other actions to stand up for their point of view, but don't want to boycott these games.

What do you personnaly think about that issue? What should be done? Should Olympic Games be use for political issues?


I say NO ^^

and really, lets say every country boycotted the games . what would happen?
hmm I think the Chinas would play they games and win every price.
so the only thing that would happen is that China would get world champion in every sport XD


and maybe not, but that is a possibility. and really why boycott it, its only a tournament with some games. just like LX ;)

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Re: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2008, 06:38:21 pm »
I also think Politics and Sport are different things.

But, Human rights are more important than sport... And a boycott would be a very important political pressure, as Olympic Games are one of the most broadcasted event in the world. So, if China is threatened by many countries about a boycott, I guess they would be forced to develop human rights...   Maybe people who participate to the sport events could take personnal initiatives, like some of them did for blacks rights in USA,  in Mexico olympic games :

 

Here, the probem is media isn't free in China, and Chinese people wouldn't know about everythin that happened during these games...



About Tibet, they don't want to give them autonomy because, if they did it, then other minorities (especially growing muslim community on the North) would ask for autonomy too. And China would then risk to lose a lot of their international weight...

Ruki

Re: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2008, 06:48:40 pm »
Sport should not be involved in politics, that is why also that Serbian swimer got disqualified when he had "Kosovo is Serbia" written on his shirt.

But as you know communists always loved great manifests and events in their honor. Tito, Stalin, even Hitler (not a communist) all had their sport events.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 06:50:11 pm by Ruki »
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Hermod

Re: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2008, 07:00:06 pm »
I think they shall be combined, sports are organised games. And by doing all sports more popular the human can become stronger, quicker, and more active.
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Will Duke

Re: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2008, 07:20:44 pm »
Agree with Ruki. But Olimpic games are always involved in politics. First thing come in my mind is  Berlin '36. Hitler wanted to show how cool his "race" is.(get pwned some unique afro-american sportsman). So i hope China will get pwned too. Anyway, I say FREE TIBET! and Calvi, if u see those chines running with the torch plz bow hard...
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Calvi

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Re: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2008, 07:26:55 pm »
Agree with Ruki. But Olimpic games are always involved in politics. First thing come in my mind is  Berlin '36. Hitler wanted to show how cool his "race" is.(get pwned some unique afro-american sportsman). So i hope China will get pwned too. Anyway, I say FREE TIBET! and Calvi, if u see those chines running with the torch plz bow hard...

Indeed, they are in Paris this Sunday !

But the torch will be held by sportsmen... Pedro Miguel Pauleta, David Douillet, Stephane Diagana... And many others... They took the initiative of wearing this badge :



It means "For a better world"... I admit it is a bit senseless, but at least, it makes the media speak a bit about it... By the way, I suppose unexpected initiatives will show that day, for Tibet and humans rights...

Sakmongkol

Re: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2008, 12:59:59 am »
I think sending the current Finnish team to the Olympic games is almost the same as boycotting them  :D
But seriously, I think human rights have been an issue in China for so long that it's not gonna change all of a sudden just because of the Olympics. Maybe the boycott would help but the effect would be noticeable only long after the games. And just why would China have to care about human rights after the games anymore? The situation could be better for a while but I don't think that's worth boycotting the games.
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Calvi

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Re: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2008, 05:32:55 pm »
Maybe only economical pressure would be very effective... But no country will do it, China is way too important for economics now...

But, I dont agree with you Sakmongkol. As soon as China will have done important concessions, their people will feel it in they way of life. So, China will not be able to get back to their current position...

Anyway, I guess humans right question should have been spoken about years ago, when China was designed for Olympic Games... On my mind, everybody is acting too late...

Here is a link for pictures of incidents that occured today in Paris :  http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualites/2008/04/07/01001-20080407DIAWWW00520-les-incidents-en-images.php
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 05:35:07 pm by Calvi »
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Sakmongkol

Re: China human rights ---> Olympic games boycott?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 08:56:40 pm »
But, I dont agree with you Sakmongkol. As soon as China will have done important concessions, their people will feel it in they way of life. So, China will not be able to get back to their current position...

Well, some people would surely feel the change and maybe start fighting for their rights. But it's not like every Chinese's rights are being oppressed, some people are actually doing quite well there and they might not even notice or care if the government made some improvements. After all, I think the ones who suffer most from this situation are the ones with a 'wrong' political opinion.

Anyway, I guess humans right question should have been spoken about years ago, when China was designed for Olympic Games... On my mind, everybody is acting too late...

Indeed, this whole matter should have been discussed already when they decided to hold the Olympics in China, which was in 2001 as far as I know. Well, maybe it was discussed back then, but it seems to me that everybody's making a big deal out of the issue only as the games draw nearer. They had 7 whole years to improve the situation, but no-one told them to do that until like half a year before the actual games. Or at least I don't remember hearing much from this in the media for the last 7 years. I think it's hypocritical to start acting now or even boycott the games.
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nihil abyssyncyst

It is the right thing to fight, but not when you are fighting for the wrong thing. The athletes who did the black power salute to protest racial oppression are heroes. The French anti-China protestors who attacked the Chinese woman in a wheelchair and tried to wrench the torch from her hands are repulsive counterrevolutionary bigots.

China should be defended against these ignorant anti-communist protests. China should have a government change, but it should come from the Chinese working people and not from these imperialist countries or forces serving them. China should have change in a positive direction towards democracy and socialism rather than a negative direction towards corrupt capitalist democracy. Positive examples of uprisings for socialism and democracy in Stalinist states include the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, Poland's 1956 uprising, and China's Tiananmen uprising of 1989. The negative examples are USSR, Yugoslavia and East Europe between 1989-93. The rights for ethnic minorities got worse with restoration of capitalism, not better.

The best thing we can do is fight for positive socialist revolution and soviet democracy in all countries, looking first at the ones we live in, to provide good examples that other parts of the world will follow and then we can eventually join together voluntarily and have peace based on a world integrated socialist economy and high standard of living.

The fact is, the capitalist countries that people are protesting against China from are imperialist themselves. Between their ruling classes and the ruling classes they set up in the semicolonial world, capitalists have killed overall hundreds of millions through malevolent negligence and tens of millions violently through counterrevolutionary and imperialist wars. Most of the deaths caused by the imperialists are not just through their wars, but because through their wars they have been able to keep in place a system that is primarily concerned with exploitation including keeping semicolonial countries from developing -- just so they are easier to keep exploiting. Most of their victims die from the cruelty of the imperialists who grow enough food and can make enough medicine but do not distribute it when unprofitable. You can tell when you look at all the messed up things happening in the world that the imperialist countries apply a double standard when they focus mainly on the crimes of countries resisting them and not serving them.

The official and de facto policy of the imperialist countries has always been to stop communism from coming to power with force even if they are voted in or are so popular they would be voted in if there was a vote, and to try to invade or otherwise support forces to overthrow governments that try to take control of their own resources rather than bowing to imperialism. Examples of invasions, coups, support to fascism, and other shady activities to stop communists from taking power even democratically are listed at the end. Given that they have survived based on doing this, distortion of history is necessary for them, and you will have to work extra hard to learn the truth (i.e. dig deeper than wikipedia).

The US and its allies have killed over two million people in Iraq during the last two decades. For comparison, that is between a third and a half of the whole population of Tibetans.

Many look at Stalinist states in a one sided way, like they are either good or bad. The truth is they are contradictory and have both elements of social progress and political degeneration. In terms of social improvements and economic growth they are historically proven to be better than capitalist governments. The only way possible to make the opposite argument is if you only compare countries that were already advanced capitalism to countries that were relatively poor semicolonial countries at the time of their revolution, or if you use selective cases of a couple of small countries that happen to be bordering Stalinist countries and were invested in for political purposes as anticommunist counterweights (West Germany, South Korea). It is deceptive for the US and other imperialists to emphasize they are doing better on an absolute scale than the Stalinist states, when actually the capitalists were growing at a slower rate than the countries with socialist revolution, who are catching up faster than the rest of the third world. China has the fastest growing economy in the world for the last three decades straight and is unaffected by capitalist financial crashes such as the Asian stock market crash of the 90s, just as the USSR was immune to the Great Depression of the 1930s.

Tibet used to be a feudal theocracy where 95 percent of people were homeless slaves who ate off the ground like dogs and were forced to do all the work for an idle group of monks and landlords, as part of the religion. As part of the religion, women were forced to repeat that they were inferior every day and were kept as sex slaves in stables for the upper classes and had to be shared among a whole group of brothers for the lower classes. As part of the religion, you had to accept the group you were born into and you would be killed, amputated, or eye gouged for resisting.

The Chinese revolution of 1949 doubled the life expectancy for China including Tibet from around 35 to around 70, raised the literacy rate from only a few percent to over 90, and emancipated women from forced marriages and social seclusion.

Because of the connection to the Chinese Revolution, Tibet has higher measures on all basic statistics of standard of living and social advancement -- rights of women, life expectancy, infant mortality, literacy, percent malnutrition -- than most countries in the third world, higher than India, and way higher than the other land-locked Asian countries nearby it. Even the Dalai Lama recognizes that Tibet would become poor if it separated from China.

China's government should reinstate full employment laws and make training programs for Tibetans so they can get a fair share of the good job opportunities in the region, and Chinese and Tibetans should work together against any form of discrimination against minorities.

The Dalai Lama thinks he is a "god-king". He is also a liar.
-Declassified CIA Documents prove China's story about him is correct (Penn and Teller's Bullshit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szQwMaXh4Ko&feature=related)
-His right hand man was a CIA agent who ordered him to attack Chinese troops in 1959.
-He harbored CIA agents who were organizing counterrevolutionary uprisings in other parts of China.
-He admitted taking weapons from the US to use against China while he was in power.
-The CIA spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on his personal allowance and also on setting up a training camp for guerrilla fighters who killed people in China.
-A former director of the Free Tibet Campaign resigned and admitted they have zero evidence of their allegation that China killed 1.2 million Tibetans, and that they just made it up. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/22/opinion/22french.html
-The Dalai Lama says Tibet used to be a paradise. If he truly believes that the historical situation I described earlier is a paradise, he is one of the sickest people alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY&feature=related
-Far from representing religious freedom, the Dalai Lama has for decades gone on a campaign of violence and intimidation against Tibetans in India who believe in another deity as well as him (Dorje Shugdin). Why should anyone listen to this control freak who is willing to do religious repression to suppress a rival imaginary friend? http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/

The recent riots in Tibet were a race riot that was set up where Tibetan shops hung white scarves on front of their doors and rioters murdered Han Chinese and Hui Muslims including children. Not all Tibetans participated, many helped save Han from the rampaging monks leading teenage hooligans. There is no proof that the violent riots represent a majority of Tibetans, that is just according to right wing Tibetan exiles (who are a tiny percent) and the anticommunist media. These are some shady characters who are known to lie backed by even shadier characters who are known to lie.

Here are some comparisons to think about:

The Kurds in Turkey are 2-3 times the population of Tibet, and they are over half the population in the area they want to make independent. But because they are led by the leftist Kurdistan Workers Party, the imperialist countries oppose their independence. Kurdistan is basically a discriminated colony of Turkey, which has continued to massacre them and hold their leaders as political prisoners.

Tibet and the other ethnic autonomous regions in china have less than half their population as minorities, but were given these autonomous areas in recognition of their cultures. The law is prejudicial against the majority Han group and in favor of minorities, applying the one-child policy only to Han and not to minorities.

Why do you think you hear so much about Tibet and the Dalai Lama and not about Turkish Kurdistan and the Kurdistan Workers Party?

Tibet could have the possibility of independence if there were socialist revolutions in other countries especially the advanced ones and India. Right now, Tibetan independence would only be part of a capitalist counterrevolution meant to spread to China itself and turn it into a sweatshop directly exploited by the imperialists, with a similar scale of social collapse you saw in the former USSR.

Look at this world life expectancy map using CIA data (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Life_Expectancy_2007_Estimates_CIA_World_Factbook.PNG). It proves that capitalist restoration lowers the life expectancy as you see in East Europe and the former USSR. Currently Russia has five years lower life expectancy than North Korea (the worst managed stalinist state), and a lower life expectancy than India.

You will be easy to fool if you do not see every political/government/media pronouncement as serving the interests of some class or another. If the US or another imperialist country is crying "human rights", the primary reason is usually counterrevolutionary or imperialist and nothing to do with real human rights. Dalai Lama is no better than Osama Bin Laden, his Muslim counterpart. Osama used the CIA to help him fight a counterrevolutionary terrorist war to stop womens rights and social progress in Afghanistan against the USSR-backed PDPA government's attempts to educate women and redistribute land. The Dalai Lama being supported by liberals today is the same thing as these same people supporting Osama and the Afghan Mujahedin in the 80s. They think its a good cause, but they are supporting the worst people in the whole world. Supporting these monsters is morally equivalent to kicking women and poor in the face.

Appendix 1

Claims against China other than Tibet

-Xinjiang/Uighur/East Turkestan
The same things I said about full employment, training programs, and opposition to discrimination apply to the Uighurs the same as the Tibetans.

-Darfur
The US supported North Sudan in a 40 year civil war to forcefully Islamicize South Sudan, killing 2 million people. They said the SPLA of the south was backed by the USSR as their reason to support this. In Darfur a different civil war started over scarce resources, and two hundred thousand have been killed. Hypocritically, the US/UN exacerbated this civil war by putting sanctions on Sudan at the same time of the resource crisis, and then claims China is doing "genocide". The US and allies are currently killing in Iraq with a total of over 2 million, and are mainly using the Darfur issue to whip up opposition to Islam (though both sides in Darfur are Muslim). China should have the same rights to trade as any other country and UN or AU intervention should be opposed.

-Falun Gong
A counterrevolutionary cult financially backed by the US. The Falun Gong thinks women are inferior, homosexuality is evil, interracial marriage should be banned, and use the swastika (they are a new religion that picked up this symbol post ww2, not an old one). They also oppose medicine. This group is known to make up things against China that even the US government doesn't believe (like their allegations of organ harvesting of Falun Gong adherents). The Chinese state should be supported against this group.

-Death Penalty and other abuses
Chinese people must fight for abolition of the death penalty, and any other abuse like beatings in custody.

-Political Freedoms, One Party State
Chinese people must fight for the freedom of multiple socialist parties who do not work with the US or other imperialists.

Appendix 2

Examples of invasions, coups, and other shady activities to stop communists from taking power even democratically.

-14 capitalist imperialist countries invaded Soviet Russia in 1918-1920 to try to overthrow the Bolsheviks who were elected through fair elections in the Soviets, which were democratic councils controlled by other parties at the time of the vote. The civil war the imperialists supported killed so many people (9 million) and devastated the countryside and industry that it resulted in the Stalinist faction having a chance at taking power.
-The US supported right wing fascist sympathizing dictator Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek's war against the communists in China. He employed strategies like trying to kill everyone and their whole families for living in a region that supports the communists. 5 or more million killed to stop communism.
-Italy would have voted for communists after communist led partisans overthrew Mussolini's Salo government at the close of ww2. The CIA threatened to cut off food to Italy if they voted for the communists and gave millions to the Christian Democratic Party to set them up as a financially corrupt de facto one-party state (Japan was also set up as a one party state after ww2 with corrupt financing to prevent the communists from being voted in, because the communists were the only party that opposed japan's imperialist wars)
-Korea would have voted for communism after ww2, but the US troops arrested leftists in the south and prevented any leftist party from running. Syngman Rhee, US backed dictator of South Korea told people if they voted against him they would be deprived of their food rations. The US lied about who started the war in order to get the UN to support 16 countries invading. Fact is South Korea had been raiding the North Korean border for years including a major invasion in 1944 and hundreds of invasions during 1945 so it is a lie to say the North was singularly aggressive. 4 million killed to prevent the communists from taking power. Most unarmed civilians in the war were killed by the US and South Korea. South Korea while it got democracy in 1986 still is an unfree US puppet, for example its military chain of command must go through the US military chain of command in order to do anything and you can be arrested for saying you oppose the presence of US troops.
-The US knew Vietnam would vote Ho Chi Minh by over 80 percent if they allowed free elections, so the only strategy they could think of that could work against such a big majority supporting the communists was to put everyone living in the countryside into concentration camps and bomb the rest of the country. 4 million killed to prevent the communists from taking power.

Atrocities done against left-nationalists:
-Iran had elected Mossadeq who was soviet leaning and wanted to nationalize foreign companies owned by the likes of Britain. US aided a coup against him in 1954 and helped set up a secret police after that.
-The US supported military coups by generals sympathetic to fascism throughout Latin America, and helped them train "death squads" whose job it was to brutally kill all leftists. One of the most notorious was the Guatemalan Junta which came to power with US backing in 1954 because Jacobo Arbenz was elected and wanted to nationalize the US company United Fruit, which owned over half their country. The junta killed maybe 300 thousand indigenous peasants, who were rising up and fighting against the social conditions where they were bought and sold like slaves.
-In the Republic of Congo-Kinshasa (later Zaire and today Democratic Republic of Congo) the elected leader Lumumba was kidnapped and murdered by the CIA, UN, and Belgium who then helped the dictator Mobutu take over.
-In 1973 the elected socialist Allende of Chile was overthrown by a CIA organized coup. Tens of thousands were executed.
-After independence from fascist Portugal around 1975, all former Portuguese colonies had some kind of nominally marxist party come to power with mass support, because the Portuguese Communist Party was the main party fighting against the fascist government and had supported colonial independence. East Timor elected FRETILIN and in response the US and Australia backed the Indonesian dictator Suharto invading and killing 1/3 of their population. In Angola and Mozambique the US worked with apartheid South Africa to back counterrevolutionary terrorists who killed a half million and a million people respectively.
-After the Sandinista National Liberation Front (FSLN) defeated the US backed Somoza family dictatorship in Nicaragua in 1979, the US backed a terrorist war against them and mined their harbors to prevent them from trading, even when they were democratically elected in elections held within a couple years.

Support to Fascism
-Contrary to myth, the capitalists even from democratic countries supported the fascist transformations of Italy, Germany, and Spain. The reason the capitalists supported destroying democracy is because these were the cases where there were the largest communist parties and threat of revolution. The capitalists saw no alternative but to stop democracy and free speech using racist and religious rhetoric and organized violence to prevent communists who were growing from being able to continue to recruit freely. For example US government documents from before WW2 praise the fascists for stopping the communists and Winston Churchill praised fascism as capitalism's final defense against communism in public speeches. They only claimed to oppose fascism later when German imperialism became a threat to US and British imperialism.

Appendix 3

To understand Stalinism rather than just reading right wing propaganda against it, read works by Trotsky and Trotskyists. Trotsky was a revolutionary leader along with Lenin who fought against Stalin and the bureaucracy to restore workers democracy after the civil war, but never stopped defending the positive gains of the revolution. He describes Stalinism as historically parallel to Bonapartism, with Stalin representing a political degeneration of the Russian Revolution just as Napoleon represented a political degeneration of the French Revolution. The parallel goes further: they were political counterrevolutions that were still based on a social transformation and as such they spread this social transformation to other areas they gained military control over, such as Napoleon's abolition of serfdom and change from inherited noble positions to meritocracy in parts of central Europe and Italy, establishing capitalism, and Stalin's overthrow of the landlords and capitalists in parts of East Europe.

Trotsky - The Revolution Betrayed http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/

Spartacist Pamphlet - The Stalin School of Falsification Revisited http://www.bolshevik.org/history/Other/falsification.html

Workers Vanguard articles:
China's "Market Reforms": A Trotskyist Analysis http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/874/chinamarket.html
Falun Gong: Force for Counterrevolution in China http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/762/falungong.html
Counterrevolutionary Riots in Tibet http://www.spartacist.org/english/wv/911/tibet.html
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