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Author Topic: Religion - why?  (Read 18574 times)

Master

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2007, 04:18:40 pm »
EvolutionTheory sucks! Yeah!

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Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2007, 04:49:03 pm »
Could you perhaps elaborate such a scenario? Ever since Darwin and Wallace presented the theory, all the fossil discoveries haven't still ''knocked it off it's feet''. The discoveries have supplemented the theory, not contradicted it. The discoveries have developed our minds, but the main understanding stays the same, no? Of course everything is possible, but it's not very probable that one single fossil can change the whole line of discoveries before that. It can give us new views on the subject though.

If a man picks out the finest breed examples from a pile of puppies and mates them with similar fine examples to get prettier or stronger descendants, is that not man-controlled evolution?

For example a Rabbitfossil from  the Precambrian age (4500 millions year ago to 542 million years ago). Pretty much everything we "knew" about evolution would have to be reconsidered if such a finding is ever made.
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26 Mars 2007
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Mr. Pimp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2007, 05:34:07 pm »
If a man picks out the finest breed examples from a pile of puppies and mates them with similar fine examples to get prettier or stronger descendants, is that not man-controlled evolution?
Yes that is man-controlled evolution.  But that doesn't mean we(human beings) have descended from something else.  This hasn't been proven by fact.  Its a theory. 
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Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2007, 06:00:52 pm »

2) Besides look at the ones in third world countries. For not being a murderer or rapist, your simple incentive is that you're going to be butt-raped in jail. Also you won't be thrown out of society etc etc.
Your hilarious plans of the world collapsing without religion are nice, btw :P
4) I heard on a documentary that a lot of american schools refuse to teach evolution. This was a few years ago though, maybe it's better now. Also, christianity will always base their values on an ancient book that is never going to change. Science bases values and beliefs on discoveries. Even the social moral values are changing (homosexual tolerance etc) but the christians still fight against everything new. Standing against progress, inserting christian propaganda into children's heads - dumbing down the society + growing a new generation of dumbasses as well.
5) Of course belief and knowledge are totally different. Master there was pointing out that they're the same though. Knowledge is not only based on what you can see, it's based on your other senses too. And science can also find out about things that our senses can't, so that's another thing. About history - I believe it. I remain skeptic about it as for one, the content highly depends on who wrote the thing and for two, I can never be sure if it's true in the first place.
About uncertainities - What is religion? One big uncertainty. Maybe I took this science praising too far, of course some things can be wrong. But science being right is so much more probable than religion being right.
2) Right, you believe that people will stop doing bad stuff because jail= bad to their asses. People will do bad stuff because 90% of them are impulsive. The first trait of humans is survival. Transcendence (some people actually believe it's innate in humans) comes dead last. If you want to survive, do you think they won't take the chance of doing unlawful things? The police aren't everywhere and you are pretty naive to believe that the concept of jail can embody the concept of incentive to be moral. That in itself is wrong. To me, you do good things because it's your duty. You don't do good things because you're afraid of getting ass-raped. I guess that's the difference between you and I.
4) LOL! Ignorant statement x 2. There are such things as public schools, you know... Geez. Plus, just because the authority tells us about stuff, it takes a little more than that for children to believe it or trust it.
5) Based on your senses, yes, empirical observation. Science can find out about other things our senses can't? Cant religion do the same thing? So basicaly, you're accepting that science has uncertainties but you can't accept that religion is one big uncertainty which is a natural source of belief in itself. You call something "the truth" knowing that it can be wrong. Okay, I won't pick on your words, but how probable must something be for you to "trust" the information and believe it? Total BS. 
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Kurt

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Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2007, 09:46:22 pm »
Kray->
2)Hahah, I didn't say the assphobia is the only thing that keeps people off from doing bad. Jail is simply the punishment that is handed out by the authorities. Besides that, you will be thrown out of the society, mocked etc. Once you get out of jail you won't get a normal job anymore, you'll have an awful reputation and so on. You might even get beaten up if you were a rapist or something like that. Not to mention the compunction feeling.
So basically your life will be ruined. And if you don't believe in afterlife then ruining your life is kind of a bad thing.
In extreme occasions survival will always be the dominant instinct of people, religion won't change that.
4) You have no idea what effect mass propaganda can have on the youth. Right now, (soviet) Russia is building up their foreign policy on hate towards the Baltic states, the goverment owns every TV or radio station and they control what goes on air. Even if someone manages to oppose the goverment he will go to jail for being ''corrupt'', go to a mental institute or just go ''missing'' as in killed. So anyway, their media is publishing stories full of lies, bent history and stuff like that. The result - this summer their youth movement had a meeting (the movement itself is very similar to Hitlerjugend btw) and they burned Baltic flags and did stuff like that. Over 10,000 people took part in the meeting. And the movement itself is still new, I don't even wanan know how many people will join it. That's a whole different story I know, but it's just an example. Youth have their own minds, but even those can be bent.
5) It would have to either make sense to me or just be observable using my senses :P

Gaston->
Heheh, that seems like a sci-fi scenario you have there :P
Yea, that could knock evolution off it's feet, but everything is possible.
An alien overlord could land with his giant spaceship in New York and announce everyone that Earth is actually a popular galactic computer game. It's all about the probability.

Pimp->
Ok, theory. Call it that. But check how much facts and discoveries are behind that theory. Not that much valid proof behind the creation ''theory'' though?
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Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2007, 10:08:20 pm »
Gaston->
Heheh, that seems like a sci-fi scenario you have there :P
Yea, that could knock evolution off it's feet, but everything is possible.
An alien overlord could land with his giant spaceship in New York and announce everyone that Earth is actually a popular galactic computer game. It's all about the probability.
I just gave you an example of what could flip the theory on it's head. And it's not as unlikely as you make it out to be. If a rabbit existed in that period, and left a fossil or an imprint of one on the earth, chances are if it still exists, it is way underground, and it would take quite a bit of effort to find it. And thus it is still undiscovered. The scenario of a rabbit living at that age, is perhaps very unlikely due to the theory of evolution, but the theory of evolution is VERY much founded on fossil findings up till now, so to rule completely it out due to the theory of evolution, isn't justified. It is neither justified to be convinced that such a fossil actually exists either, it's nothing we should count on until we potentially have found one. But we should not discount the probability of one existing completely per se.

For the record, IMO if the theory of evolution were ever to be brought down, or modified heavily, I don't think a single fossil would be the entire reason for it. But I believe 1-10 fossil findings would struggle heavily to fit into the theory, and in time  other theories are developed to suit the new findings which would gain more and more support in scientific enviroments, where they would find alternative explanations to the fossils we have found today as well as the newly recovered fossils. I don't count on that happening, but if it were to happen, I'd imagine it would happen in a way similair to that.
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26 Mars 2007
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Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2007, 10:56:11 pm »
We could actually be evolved or prehaps even devolved from an alien species. There is the occasional piece of evidence to premote such a thing. Such as the "Star child" skull. Google it. This could easily give birth to the idea of a god. Infact we could have been exiled by another race that did'nt want to share there planet with us. Practically anything could have happened. I recently finished reading a book on Darwins theory of evoloution and Darwin was'nt actually the only one with this theory infact in comparison to another guy whose name I think is Alfred Russel or something he was'nt doing much. Alfred recognised the similarity between humans and primates at the time darwin was identifieing the similarities between several  species of european banaracles. (No joke he actually was)
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Kurt

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Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2007, 11:28:12 pm »
We could actually be evolved or prehaps even devolved from an alien species. There is the occasional piece of evidence to premote such a thing. Such as the "Star child" skull. Google it. This could easily give birth to the idea of a god. Infact we could have been exiled by another race that did'nt want to share there planet with us. Practically anything could have happened. I recently finished reading a book on Darwins theory of evoloution and Darwin was'nt actually the only one with this theory infact in comparison to another guy whose name I think is Alfred Russel or something he was'nt doing much. Alfred recognised the similarity between humans and primates at the time darwin was identifieing the similarities between several  species of european banaracles. (No joke he actually was)
Right.. Starchild.
Have you considered the most probable option that it was a normal ancestor of ours, just really physically challenged?
I understand that if they had found more than one of these skulls, then you could actually start an alien theory. But just 1 skull man. DNA testing at Trace Genetics in 2003 recovered mitochondrial DNA and determined that the child had a human mother So the craziest theory you could create would be something like this: An alien from a far away galaxy (who looks notably similar to a human) came to Earth, had sex with a woman and left. ns?

Gaston->
Flipping evolution is not that impossible indeed. But the bible being true is still as stupid as the theory I wrote in the previous post.
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Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2007, 12:19:58 am »
Well I cant see I ever proclaimed the bible to be true, so I don't know why you are bringing that up. Sure creationists and intelligent design people will try to push it into science if the theory of evolution is (partially) disproven. But they are already trying that now, and they'll keep going anyway. All we can do is make sure science remains rational and not is out to manipulate people of truths as religion does very much.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 12:24:33 am by Gaston »
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26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2007, 12:28:39 am »
I personally don't believe that theory, Im just saying it for interest and that it maybe improbable yet it's still possible. Sure Darwin's theory is more probable, His Survival of the fittest makes sense, but the word evoloution only appears in the Origin of species once. Evoloution and Survival of the fittest are linked but not one in the same.

For all of you going on about evoloution being a theory, Is'nt religion simply a theory too?
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Kurt

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Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2007, 12:28:56 am »
Gaston->
Totally agree with that man :) It just disgusts me what I see on christian forums though. Maybe I should just keep out of there and save myself from trouble :P
Kiwi->
You could say so indeed, but for me religion doesn't even qualify as a theory. It more falls into the ''fairy tale'' category.
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Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2007, 12:50:18 am »
Just remembered this. One of the main points raised against Darwin's theory was that of a guy called Paley. Paley used the eye in comparison to telescopes and said since the telescope had been designed by an intelligent being that the eye was so similar it must have had an intelligent designer also seeing as the similarities between the eye and a telescope were so similar. I think Paley also said something about a watch maker making a watch, but a single watch rarely evolves throughout it's life. An analogue watch stays an analogue and does not evolve into a digital watch. So god in this case is the watchmaker and watchmakers once the watch is sold don't go and change it so darwins theory using the watch thing would be that the watch maker was actually part of the watch. Follow? Im not sure that made entire sense. Anyways who says 14 year olds are stupid?
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  • Amaranth
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2007, 08:49:37 am »
Evoloution and Survival of the fittest are linked but not one in the same.

For all of you going on about evoloution being a theory, Is'nt religion simply a theory too?
The evolution we know of is simply based on survival of the fittest/strongest. Weak/crappy genes are sorted out as the bearers dies before they can breed. Eg. compare a green larva with and a white larva on a green meadow (note* both larvas are of the same species, which was originally white. The green one is the first green larva of that species), the white larvas are likely be eaten before they can breed while the green larva is more likely to survive and eventually become a butterfly and breed. The white ones will eventually be out-competed by the green ones beacuse more green genes will pass on.


Religions aren't classified as scientific theories beacuse they doesn't have any ground to stand on.
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Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2007, 05:47:30 pm »
Kray->
2)Hahah, I didn't say the assphobia is the only thing that keeps people off from doing bad. Jail is simply the punishment that is handed out by the authorities. Besides that, you will be thrown out of the society, mocked etc. Once you get out of jail you won't get a normal job anymore, you'll have an awful reputation and so on. You might even get beaten up if you were a rapist or something like that. Not to mention the compunction feeling.
So basically your life will be ruined. And if you don't believe in afterlife then ruining your life is kind of a bad thing.
In extreme occasions survival will always be the dominant instinct of people, religion won't change that.
4) You have no idea what effect mass propaganda can have on the youth. Right now, (soviet) Russia is building up their foreign policy on hate towards the Baltic states, the goverment owns every TV or radio station and they control what goes on air. Even if someone manages to oppose the goverment he will go to jail for being ''corrupt'', go to a mental institute or just go ''missing'' as in killed. So anyway, their media is publishing stories full of lies, bent history and stuff like that. The result - this summer their youth movement had a meeting (the movement itself is very similar to Hitlerjugend btw) and they burned Baltic flags and did stuff like that. Over 10,000 people took part in the meeting. And the movement itself is still new, I don't even wanan know how many people will join it. That's a whole different story I know, but it's just an example. Youth have their own minds, but even those can be bent.
5) It would have to either make sense to me or just be observable using my senses :P

Kinda funny how you think what you say is true in every circumstance. Not gonna bother picking around in your theories.
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Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2007, 05:53:18 pm »
For all of you going on about evoloution being a theory, Is'nt religion simply a theory too?

Evolution is a scientific theory, religions are not scientific theories. That's the main difference here. You should really read up on what scientific theories are. And you should for the love of God (pun intended), not always assume that people who does not trust the evolutionairy theory, are out to promote some sort of religion over it. Many people do that, but not everyone, and I wish some people who seems to have evolution as their ultimate fetish, would sometimes allow people to not trust the evolutionairy theory completely.
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26 Mars 2007
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Alma

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2007, 06:03:09 pm »
Do you think "God" is laughing at us now?  :D
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Loke

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2007, 06:30:54 pm »
I dont know if laughs or if he cries. Beacuse in the bibel it stands that we humans will discuss this question untill we get nuts. beacuse we will never get the answer. we will get the answer when we die! And if you dont belive and God exist unlucky for you. But for us who belive, Grats we will really live happy for ever!! :D
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Zapp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2007, 07:45:54 pm »
I think I wouldn't have to list all the cons of religion as it's pretty obvious to everyone. Could ANYONE explain to me, what are the good sides of religion? Imo it only stands in the way of science (which actually proves stuff it claims as truth, unlike the bible). As science develops, religion will probably fade away. Once science finds out, how the universe was created, religious people will have no corner stone to lean on, their great ruler did NOT create universe after all (similar thing happened to evolution, it's a proven scientific fact nowadays but most religious people still refuse to believe it)
Anyway, answer my question - what is good about religion? Discussion will follow after I get a decent answer.

Religion fills the void in the human understanding of the world. The beliefs which people hold helps them grasp their existence and bring meaning to their actions. Perception and the scientific method do not bring answers to all questions, and religion fills that gap. Essentially, belief is a cure to the abstract notion of a meaningless existence.
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Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #78 on: September 06, 2007, 09:36:07 pm »
Religion fills the void in the human understanding of the world. The beliefs which people hold helps them grasp their existence and bring meaning to their actions. Perception and the scientific method do not bring answers to all questions, and religion fills that gap. Essentially, belief is a cure to the abstract notion of a meaningless existence.
Since when is belief a synonym for imagination?
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Zapp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2007, 07:01:53 am »
Since when is belief a synonym for imagination?

It's not synonymous. Belief requires conviction of truth while imagination doesn't.
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