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Author Topic: Religion - why?  (Read 20293 times)

Kurt

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Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2007, 11:48:20 pm »
Kiwi said it, religion gives people hope.
You mean delusion and denial? ;P
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ShadowShark

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2007, 12:16:10 am »
well, the question that whoever posted this (sorry i forget ill edit when im done with the post) is a good question, it has an infinite possibility of answers, but my answer is this:

Religon is what most people use to explain the unexplainable things in nature (not always true), im catholic, and i donno any good things, but without religon, my life would be a mess
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Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2007, 01:57:28 am »
Religon is what most people use to explain the unexplainable things in nature (not always true), im catholic, and i donno any good things, but without religon, my life would be a mess
USA Government, Agency plots , Extra Terestrials, Ghosts... equals not Religion...
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Desmond

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Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2007, 02:07:43 am »
Religon is what most people use to explain the unexplainable things in nature (not always true), im catholic, and i donno any good things, but without religon, my life would be a mess
USA Government, Agency plots , Extra Terestrials, Ghosts... equals not Religion...

Indeed. Aliens = Rachel Nevada, right on the edge of Nevada State 375. That's 3 kilometers away from Dream Land. Dream land is fine, attractive land owned by the US Government in Nevada. Attractive land containing an airstrip that sees a day in, day out steady stream of UFO traffic. Yes, Area 51, Watertown strip, Paradise Ranch, Groom Lake, the Farm or even the Detachment. In big : ET Central. Doubt it is a religion.
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Mr. Pimp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2007, 02:23:43 am »
I believe in a higher power.  I don't believe we evolved from monkey's, though I have to agree that it is a possibility.  I do believe there are other beings like us, dubbed aliens.  What I don't believe in is fake people who fake their religions.  Like omg I go to church, so thus I am going to Heaven.  I believe this is wrong.

If you are a good person(their are many definitions), then I think you are promised some kind of afterlife.  Wouldn't it suck ass to just die and that be the end of you.  Sometimes I think about that, and it is really depressing.  Another possibility is if you don't do your deed that you are supposed to accomplished in your life, you get re-incarnated.  That is a whole different matter, but again a possibility that I believe in.

Or everything that science has proven is true, and we really did evolve from monkey's.  Again this is not my belief, but in all reality this is a possibility.  Don't call me a flip flopper and tell me that "oh, if you think it is a possibility your not a true believer."  No not really, I am just a realist folks.

Anyway that felt awesome to talk about that.
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Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2007, 02:36:52 am »
Purplehaze->
As you said, people believe in God because it comforts them. As I said before, (1)delusion is never the way out. So you support that people take the so-called blue pill and live in eternal ignorance, slowing down mankind's progress and science? Religious people just waste some of their life away due to faith, while at the same time atheists or agnostics enjoy their life (not just physically, mentally/spiritually too) and some of them (scientists) actually help us evolve. (2)The existance of the so-called Afterlife is merely based on blind hope, would you really want to base your life on something which is almost certainly not true? Besides, even if there was an afterlife, I'd rather be in hell with some murderers but mostly normal people, than in heaven with religious fanatics  ;D

As some of you pointed out, religion is mostly so great because it offers ''hope, comfort'' etc. But believing in something without any proper base to do so, and at the (3)same time belittling science or anything that goes against their false arguments, is very ignorant. It would have been considered normal in the Dark Ages, but nowadays it should have no place in people's heads. As I said - it's a remnant of time. (4)So, not only is religion in the way of progress, it's also dumbing down the believers. A perfect example of religious ignorance is Master in this thread. (5)Buddy, learn the difference between words ''know'' and ''hope''. You know absolutely nothing, you have only blind hope. Knowledge should be based on evidence and facts. Religion is mostly based on an ancient fairy tale. I could also note the violence part, but that has been discussed about enough already.
1) Delusion? As in hope and faith?
2) You know, after-life is not just a thought for people to feel comforted. it provides a goal for people to achieve when they act morally. Say there was no 'blind-hope' that there were perhaps one after-life for morally-challenged people and one for moral people. What the **** is the incentive for the moral people to continue being nice when there is no ultimate difference between their lives and the lives of murderers, thieves, rapists and such? Without hope or good faith, the only thing to drive people's actions would be incentives. There would be no such thing as charity or good will. It'd be a strictly economic society. I guess at first an economic society wouldn't sound bad to you....but people are born into social differences. There are poor people and then there are rich people. There are abled people, then there are disabled people. The world is unfair and an economic society would not function. Then what happens? Jealously, greed, extortion. Don't you even dare tell me that humans have an innate sense of transcendence.
3) Ignorant statement. As you said, there are fanatics out there and only fanatics can make such claims. Generalizing the population shouldn't be a valid argument.
4) Ignorant statement. If you live in the 21st century (which I am starting to doubt even tho it's illogical), there are different types of intelligences. Intrapersonal, Interpersonal, science related and so on. Can you honestly tell me that people of religion are spiritually fine personed or intrapersonally fine personed? Or even interpersonally fine personed? How can they be dumbing themselves down? Okay, that's besides the point...but it's still pretty ignorant to think that just because religious people believe in an ultimate creator, they'll shun all other theories to explain things in life.
5) You mean the difference between belief and knowledge? I don't understand how you can undermine 'belief' as a way of knowing things. What makes knowledge so concrete to you? Empirical observation, right? As in you can see it with your own eyes.  It's true, most of religion cannot be seen. That's why 'knowledge' in religion is called 'belief'. (I'll elaborate after you answer my question at the bottom).

I have a question for you. Do you "know" history? Or do you "believe" history?
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Kurt

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Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2007, 02:39:25 am »
Pimp->
Do you actually know anything about evolution to make that kind of statements?
Human did not evolve from monkeys, monkeys and humans have the same ancestors. Evolution is a scientific fact, and if you'd actually learned it a little (even the simple basics), you'd understand that.
Yea, it sucks that you just die, but just accepting that is better than living in denial.
Everything that science has proven IS true. I understand that you can question theories, but how on earth can you question scientific facts that are proven?
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Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2007, 02:42:11 am »
Everything that science has proven IS true.

After you ****ing kidding me? If you know the basics of science, you'd know that there are things called uncertainties. As in random possibilities straying from the general consensus result. I can't hardly accept that 'facts' with uncertainties is known as 'the truth'.

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MissingNo.

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2007, 02:43:56 am »
When you get right down to it though, nobody really knows whether or not God, Heaven, Hell, etc. is real. We don't know because we've been told that there is a such thing for thousands of years. I , for one, don't believe in them. I do think it is good to have something to believe in though. What I don't like are people who are extreme with their religion. I'm not a fan of having their beliefs and their God(s) shoved down my throat.
If there is a God or Goddess, it really shouldn't matter what your religion is though. As long as, like Mr. Pimp said, you are good, then you should get into some kind of afterlife.

Desmond

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Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2007, 02:46:42 am »
Everything that science has proven IS true.

After you ****ing kidding me? If you know the basics of science, you'd know that there are things called uncertainties. As in random possibilities straying from the general consensus result. I can't hardly accept that 'facts' with uncertainties is known as 'the truth'.



Word. Science has proven stuff in the past, then another discovery makes the first proof obsolete and untrue at all.
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Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2007, 02:48:57 am »
First of all we need to get past the key issue. "What is religion"? e.g. is religion in this case limited to the organized ones (namely Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism to mention the 5 major ones)? Or do we transcend past that and let religion be a personal matter?

If you want answers to why people believe in organized religion (although they don't really, they just believe in their own little version of the religion), it's not that hard to answer. The promise of afterlife, the belonging to a group, the feeling that there is someone out there waching over us and convinience to name a few. Basically selfish reasons. You also gotta remember that science has been around for AAAAAGEEES. The amount of people who does believe in some sort of religion has not really changed all that much in those years. Most of this change is that people are more confident about proclaiming their belief than before since you wont get your head chopped off theese days for denying the holy spirit. Well at least not everywhere that is.

If we're talking about personal belief, I'm afraid that's never gonna change. Which IMO is a good thing. I'm with Einstein on this, and don't think that science should exist withouth religion (e.g. personal belief, not organized ones.) People will always have their personal beliefs and convincements. And science will always struggle to convince people. It's easy to spot the pattern if you look at history. Science may seem all convincing to some people, and today they GOT IT. Or w/e, but it's not gonna change anytime soon.

Science will always make progress and get better and better. And people will always ask theese questions. The one factor people always seem to forget though, is that EVERYONE has a different outlook on life than the other one. We think today that the world is an objective thing everyone sees the same way, and people choose willingly to be good or evil. And this world is displayed adequate enough through science. This is frankly just a naive belief. 

Oh yes, science gives us results. Doubtlessly. If it weren't for science I wouldn't be typing this on a computer. But what people seem to think is that since science has started to figure out the basic (though not fundamental) mechanical functions of the world, it should also figure out the basis of the secret of life. It doesn't. Science hasn't even figured out how most of our brain works in the daily life yet even. The farthest we've come to understanding the brain is knowing which areas are used during different types of thinking and situations. But we are still rather clueless when it comes to what actually goes up in there. How can we understand ourself, much less the nature of the circumstances around us, when we can't even manage to comprehend how our seemingly most important organ functions? Also, where is this exiting proof that there is no god? I am very curious about this...
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26 Mars 2007
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Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2007, 02:54:36 am »
I call out Kurt's statement "evolution is a fact". This should be interesting if he does walk the walk.
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Mr. Pimp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2007, 02:59:35 am »
Kurt human evolution is the theory that humans evolved from primates, and or some ancestor of primates.  i have seen both.

I don't really like how your trying to force you opinions on everybody.  Some things are not proven, and are just speculation.  I wish you could open your closed mind, and really explore all options man.  Did I ever say that evolution couldn't be possible?  But it sure isn't the only thing that is.
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Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2007, 03:01:50 am »
Pimp->
Do you actually know anything about evolution to make that kind of statements?
Human did not evolve from monkeys, monkeys and humans have the same ancestors. Evolution is a scientific fact, and if you'd actually learned it a little (even the simple basics), you'd understand that.
Yea, it sucks that you just die, but just accepting that is better than living in denial.
Everything that science has proven IS true. I understand that you can question theories, but how on earth can you question scientific facts that are proven?

The evolutionary theory is per se a scientific theory that is backed up by scientific facts. The evolutionairy theory is however not a fact, nor is it random speculation. Evolution is more or less proven on a very small scale, or soccalled microevolution. This lets scientists do the assumption that over millions of years, amazingly many microevolutions in the end created huge gaps between species. That's how I got all of it. Now I am of the opinion that microevolution is more or less happening, but I am however uncertain wether I believe macroevolution happened yet. I see how things point in that direction, but I have no need to believe that it actually happened yet. Mostly because I usually only trust science that can be observed in either real time, or in a scientific way throughout it's timelapse. Currently macro-evolution takes far too much time for it to meet the criteria at me. That is my stance on the theory, and I think it should be questioned as much as possible. If we stop questioning assumed facts, guess what will happen... Yes, scientific progress will stop.

Also, I don't see how science is such a high authority that it has to be believed withouth question. All I can think of is that the questioning should be valid as opposed to just question for the sake of questioning.
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26 Mars 2007
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Mr. Pimp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2007, 03:06:16 am »
Ah I see what you are saying Gaston.  That we were put on here somehow, and that now we are evolving, but we didn't evolve in the very beginning.


BTW- Thank you for saying that Evolution itself is not a fact, and that science isn't the higher power.  You really can't believe everything that seems to be force fed into you.

Another one for ya Kurt.  Why do you think people have a conscience?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 03:10:13 am by Mr. Pimp »
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Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2007, 03:37:16 am »
If you are a good person(their are many definitions), then I think you are promised some kind of afterlife.  Wouldn't it suck ass to just die and that be the end of you.  Sometimes I think about that, and it is really depressing.  Another possibility is if you don't do your deed that you are supposed to accomplished in your life, you get re-incarnated.  That is a whole different matter, but again a possibility that I believe in.
No it wouldn't suck ass to just die and that be the end of me (us). I think of it like this... Thinking, getting frustrated and depressed about this matter will only waste my life. There is no "law" or granted will there is an afterlife so I won't **** my life up just to supposely "live longer". I rather live as I want when I live for sure. Living my free way is enough for me, I don't need an extra missions pack after death.

Science will always make progress and get better and better. And people will always ask theese questions. The one factor people always seem to forget though, is that EVERYONE has a different outlook on life than the other one. We think today that the world is an objective thing everyone sees the same way, and people choose willingly to be good or evil. And this world is displayed adequate enough through science. This is frankly just a naive belief. 

Oh yes, science gives us results. Doubtlessly. If it weren't for science I wouldn't be typing this on a computer. But what people seem to think is that since science has started to figure out the basic (though not fundamental) mechanical functions of the world, it should also figure out the basis of the secret of life. It doesn't. Science hasn't even figured out how most of our brain works in the daily life yet even. The farthest we've come to understanding the brain is knowing which areas are used during different types of thinking and situations. But we are still rather clueless when it comes to what actually goes up in there. How can we understand ourself, much less the nature of the circumstances around us, when we can't even manage to comprehend how our seemingly most important organ functions?
About that brain part... science uncovered some secrets of brain but not all. So my question is what did religion do here? Is there even an answer to that question (how do the brain work?) from the religious aspect?

Also, where is this existing proof that there is no god? I am very curious about this...
This is pointless as there is the exact equivalent opposite "Where is this existing proof that there is god?". We cannot define which question should be asked first.

Another one for ya Kurt.  Why do you think people have a conscience?
I'm not Kurt but I will answer that anyway. Because people have feelings. Feelings for right and wrong. You want to say "because I believe this is the right thing to do" but that's not true. You feel like this is the right thing to do. If everything was based on pure belief, there wouldn't be disagreements. We would all believe in same things. So I dare to say that belief is partialy a consequence of feelings. Not all have guilty conscience.

Here is my question... What was there before - the belief in religion or science? Did the caveman first poke his stick up his fella or did he first see the thunder and praise it for the act of god? Perhaps the lightning lighted a fire to the caveman. He took the burning branch to his cave and kept the fire going for some time so he was warm. And at the exact same time he realised he can have fire to be warm in cave he perhaps also thanked "the creature from above" to send him the fire in first place. (Talking about human life since we don't know about belief of other animals (and flowers).) We will never know what was first (unless a scientist builds a time-machine and travels back in time to check it up). But there is one thing for sure... both things came out as a product of humans (religion and science). I mean how the hack do we know we are even real? This can all be my imagination. I can be dreaming everything that ever existed. There are questions and answers greater than science and god. No point for us immortal non-scientists to even debate them.
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Asrack

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2007, 03:38:09 am »
I wanna see some articals on what science has proven wrong in the bible. I don't believe in the bible, but I would love to see this.
Also, Every way someone has thought of we came to bo on this planet is a theory. Evolution, Scientology, Biblical, other religious ways. It's all theories, and none has been proven.

Here is a question, Religion, why not?
I mean, it keeps people in line, it helps people along in there days, months, and years. I don't see the big deal. I can understand not believing it to a certian point, the only bad thing I believe about it, is that people allow it to be in politics. Once religion is moved from politics life will be ever so much better. What does it matter to you if someone is sitting in Chruch on a Sunday morning...? As long as they are not telling you to believe in what they believe I can't see a problem.
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Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2007, 03:44:08 am »
We must not think of it as Science vs. God. We know too little to do that yet. I don't know for how long there will be this "which one?" but I'm sure we won't figure it for the loooong time. What happens when we break that enigma? Apocalypse?
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MissingNo.

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2007, 03:45:35 am »
I wanna see some articals on what science has proven wrong in the bible. I don't believe in the bible, but I would love to see this.
Also, Every way someone has thought of we came to bo on this planet is a theory. Evolution, Scientology, Biblical, other religious ways. It's all theories, and none has been proven.

Here is a question, Religion, why not?
I mean, it keeps people in line, it helps people along in there days, months, and years. I don't see the big deal. I can understand not believing it to a certian point, the only bad thing I believe about it, is that people allow it to be in politics. Once religion is moved from politics life will be ever so much better. What does it matter to you if someone is sitting in Chruch on a Sunday morning...? As long as they are not telling you to believe in what they believe I can't see a problem.
Well, science didn't disprove it but it was proven false nonetheless. Where it says Jesus rose from the dead behind the rock was added recently to the bible. So, unless somebody went the to past, that is false.
I have some questions though, since we're having a wonderful discussion/debate.
1. What do you think the meaning of life is?
2. What do you think of Satan?

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2007, 03:49:35 am »
Everything that science has proven IS true.

After you ****ing kidding me? If you know the basics of science, you'd know that there are things called uncertainties. As in random possibilities straying from the general consensus result. I can't hardly accept that 'facts' with uncertainties is known as 'the truth'.



Word. Science has proven stuff in the past, then another discovery makes the first proof obsolete and untrue at all.

Can't go past this without saying something.

Science does'nt just prove things it also disproves things originally perceived as the truth in science. Science unlike religions goes back and trials old theories with new evidence to see if they are true. Science it's self evolves. Religion simply goes by on a crusty book of questionable origin and accuracy. A devout christian will look at the grand canyon and think "The great flood caused that" while a geologist will look at it not as a whole but as a contrustion made up of layers of bed rock and already known facts and will reach the conclusion that the grand canyon took thousands if not millions of years of wearing (Erosion is not the proper word for this process, as any budding or intelligent geologist will know.) down. Sure it has been made by floods (Emphasis on the plural), but none of them are close to the super flood the bible "Claims" happened.

As a few of you may know sea fossils have been found on Mt. Everest and through out that moutain range that I cannot spell. This is simply tectonic plates forcing land that was once under the sea upwards. (During a great flood so to speak that happened hundreds of millions of years before humanity even existed) There is a tiny substance within rocks that do this called Zircon. Everytime a rock goes through this million year process the zircon gathers another shell around the core of itself. Rather like the rings on the inside of a tree, it can tell us how many times this particular rock has under gone this process of montinous proportions. (Sorry could'nt help myself :D)

Science-X*
Religion-0

*The uncountable number of times science has conquered over religion.


P.S. Asrack thats two examples.
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