Total servers: 3
Who's still around? (Forum Discussion ) by Qaz, August 19, 2019, 03:09:48 pm
2012 (Forum Discussion ) by Adam August 18, 2019, 08:29:56 pm
[wc] Legacy of the Toilet Warriors Tribute video (Forum Discussion ) by Adam August 18, 2019, 08:24:01 pm
Holidays/Me leaving/me coming back Threads (The World Outside) by Adam August 18, 2019, 08:14:20 pm
95.46.198.26
Unknown
Unknown – 0lt
IP: 95.46.198.26
Game Mode:
Lives: 0
Max Kills: 0
Version: LieroX 0.56b
Players:
80.186.170.22
Unknown
Unknown – 0lt
IP: 80.186.170.22
Game Mode:
Lives: 0
Max Kills: 0
Version: LieroX 0.56b
Players:
M0rtsHeaven
Modern Warfare1.0 – 20lt
IP: 84.251.82.159
Game Mode: Death Match
Lives: 0
Max Kills: 12
Version: OpenLieroX 0.58 rc5
Players:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Religion - why?  (Read 20292 times)

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Religion - why?
« on: August 31, 2007, 02:28:57 am »
I think I wouldn't have to list all the cons of religion as it's pretty obvious to everyone. Could ANYONE explain to me, what are the good sides of religion? Imo it only stands in the way of science (which actually proves stuff it claims as truth, unlike the bible). As science develops, religion will probably fade away. Once science finds out, how the universe was created, religious people will have no corner stone to lean on, their great ruler did NOT create universe after all (similar thing happened to evolution, it's a proven scientific fact nowadays but most religious people still refuse to believe it)
Anyway, answer my question - what is good about religion? Discussion will follow after I get a decent answer.
Logged

Purplehaze

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2007, 02:41:19 am »
One word- Afterlife
Logged

Spoon

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2007, 02:46:11 am »
Dude. You've touched upon possibly the biggest and most important question of our time, and you'd done it such injustice it makes me a little bit sick.

There are several very very good, in-depth books out atm that deal with the subject extensively, I suggest reading some if you're interested in this topic. Hitchins' 'God is not Great' is a start.

This forum isn't the place for it, since I could not write what I want without taking up entire pages on one thread, and responses are always too dashed and not thought out to let the subject grow.

I admire that you're thinking about this with an objective view, something very few bother to do - but a hashed, unformatted paragraph doesn't take it seriously.
Logged

Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2007, 02:51:30 am »
Ofcourse it depends of the observer's matter - what is good about religion for who/what. It is good for Vatican and those on high positions in every religion (power, money - money = power). It is good for believers to have something like faith (Won't go into longer explainations because the matter is clear here.). Exotic religions like buddhism (etc.) are also good for health and body. See meditation, mental/physical body training, martial arts for more info. Just few quick thoughts to name. What concrete is there good in religion for me? Laughing to jokes over religious subjects or to some religion itself.
Logged

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2007, 03:31:06 am »
Purplehaze->
Yes, an old unexplained myth written on ancient scribblings. It makes as little sense as walking on water, turning water into wine or resurrecting. Are you willing to waste some of your life away due to blind hope towards something that is almost certainly impossible? Science is already proving that some parts of the bible are wrong, why wouldn't that be?
In my opinion religion is a remnant of time - people used to give credit to higher power for unexplainable things. Nowadays when science is improving, people should be letting go of it but they won't. It's comforting + moral support, as Ruki pointed out. But really, the harsh truth is better than the sickening delusion, even if it doesn't offer you comfort and support. Would you rather take the blue pill or the red pill?

Spoon->
I might have a look at it sometimes. Right now I'm more into Richard Dawkins and the 'God Delusion'. I like the fact how he has the courage to straightly attack religion, something which his colleague probably wouldn't do. Although, this way the religious people will take more offence and will have a harder time accepting the facts.

I thought I'd just chop this in, an example of true religious ignorance -
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YjqUmuMhTsM
These people are dangerous and they try to convert more people to their extremist side every day. Quite spooky. And at least 30% of the religious people whose posts I read on teh interwebz are like that.
Logged

MissingNo.

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2007, 03:51:15 am »
Wow, I kinda can't believe there's a topic on religion. There's going to be a lot of debating in here. I could get into it, but it's just not a topic I like to dwell into. People criticize me all the time for being Atheist, but I don't even care. I do agree with Orch1D though that science actually proves stuff, and that religion may fade away. I doubt that though.

Purplehaze

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2007, 04:17:43 am »
Yeah they did find scribblings. When I say afterlife, I'm talking about life after death, living in God's heaven. Each religion has it, but every religion is different about theirs.  But if there's no afterlife, then what is there? What's the point of living? We all spend ~80 years (if we're lucky) on this rock we call Earth as ants in a feeble solar system. Then what? We die, our brain ceases to work, and we're in the ground or cremated. So again I ask, what's the point of living if we're going to all end up like this? Chances are, none of us that view this forum will make any kind of impact on Earth.
Yeah, it's a depressing thought, but everyone needs to realize it at some point in their lives.
I pity the people that go out only for physical pleasure, and think of nothing but themselves. Life is so much deeper, 99% of the human population barely scrapes the surface of understanding the knowledge mankind has discovered or what on our Earth there actually is.
So back to Religion.
I think many people believe in a God because the thought of being in the ground in a short time is so depressing, so harsh, so realistic. The Afterlife is such a sweet sounding promise.  "Be good and you will have eternal life in Heaven."
Where do I sign up?

I'm in an emo mood now. Time to go listen to screamo and go cut.
Logged

IRC

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2007, 08:44:44 am »
Religion is a getaway from real life, and most of the religions are stupid. For example Islam, they believe in genocide to prove there point. I honestly think it's all bullshit, if there is a higher power why he/she let bad things like childmolesting and wifebeating happen, to prove his point? Of what. Screw god and screw religion.
Logged
Cop is my legacy.

Alma

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2007, 09:12:11 am »
Before you sart flaming IRC for such words please, realise that he is drunk and didnt know what he was saying! have merci

Noone likes the feeling that we are alone in this universe. Imagine! You are just a spot! And there is noone out there?!?! (of course but dont know yet, but still)! So, when people believe in god they feel a bit safe, like they arent "just a spot" and that "someone cares" and "helps" you (and is actually watching you 24/7  >:()..and of course other things Ruki wrote


IRC my dad is muslim and i`ve never seen him killing anyone, or beeing a terrorist..actually, I`ve never seen him anywhere except in living room watching TV
Logged

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2007, 11:08:52 am »
Very strong topic.

Let me introduce you to the illusion of religion. Christianity claims that god will answer prayers in 3 ways. God will not grant your prayer and we must trust he knows best, god will not answer your prayers straight away and we must wait and god will answer your prayers. So go and pray to  say...A jug of milk and ask for some money. Now there are three scenarios.

1: You get the money in one way or another and obviously praying to this jug of milk was something special.
2: Nothing happens, six months later you get the money
3: Nothing happens and you keep praying, you wonder why you haven't got any money but you must trust that the milk jug knows whats best and hope that it will happen later. You keeping waiting.

I come from a very anti-religious family. We think it makes more wars than it makes peace. Everyone goes on about racist segregation but no one thinks of the religious segregation. "You may not go out with my daughter because you don't believe in the almighty god!"
Logged

Master

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2007, 11:34:00 am »
I do belive in God, nad people can think im stupid or whatever...i dont care. i know what i belive in and i know its true.

And god do answer to prayers!
Logged

RuNyoufool

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2007, 11:53:59 am »
Religion is a getaway from real life, and most of the religions are stupid. For example Islam, they believe in genocide to prove there point. I honestly think it's all bullshit, if there is a higher power why he/she let bad things like childmolesting and wifebeating happen, to prove his point? Of what. Screw god and screw religion.

Don't use this type of language in here, please.
Logged
this was posted in the past. everything on forums can be manipulated. don't believe what you see or read.

Benn0

  • Im a lagging whore, if you see me in your server, PLEASE do not hesitate to kick me out! I HATE LAGGERZ ZOMG MORTORS!
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +33/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 910
  • 1117 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Benn0
  • Amaranth
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2007, 12:39:55 pm »
The reason why any religions apperared was beacuse people wanted answers, so they created their own cute transparent answers, God created this and that. I AM the messenger of God was probably the easiest way ever to gain power over a population. Just raise your own status to "God".

This whole concept is reflected thoughout the christian (catholic) history. Just take a look at the Pope and the Crusades, Zomg God commands you to conquer the HOLY land aka. Jerusalem!!!!11one! And people signed up for the army beacuse their "God" told them.

It isn't even that hard to understand present fanatics, just read through the Bible and the Koran and you'll find something like "This is the right way, and every heretic must die!" This is of course a matter of interpretation, but I'm pretty positive that most people would come to this conclusion. (Haven't read the whole Bible not the Koran though, so I'm just basing this on another article that I've read)

But yeah, This world would be a much better place if religions wouldn't exist, it's just brainwashing nowadays. Note* not the Parishes charity work and such.


Edit: Sorry for using improper language.
Quote
Zomg God commands you to conquer the HOLY land aka. Jerusalem!!!!11one!
Just to clarify one thing, I used it to strengthen the exaggeration.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 02:27:44 pm by Benn0 »
Logged
Donate rice, improve your vocabulary

Check out Outlawz - The Movie in my profile or directly on Youtube

Adam

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2007, 12:52:56 pm »
Just take a look at the Pope and the Chrusades, Zomg God commands you to conquer the HOLY land aka. Jerusalem!!!!11one!

Can you guys please leave out the 1337/haxor speak out of such a discussion? I know Run just asked for that, but I find it too disturbing for such a serious topic. And learn your facts before you make such a statement Benno...
Logged
Quote from: Asrack
I missed inturpreted that wrong than.
Gezz.

redeye

  • Love and be loved, thatís what life is about! Inspiration, fascination, happiness!
  • LXA addicted
  • ****
  • Schwartz: +216/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 394
  • 5569 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To redeye
  • I will make my huge comeback later :)
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2007, 02:10:42 pm »
i think relegion isn't good for money, afterlife or w/e u guys said, i think it's to have faith, people who believe can get their energie to go on out of the faith they have in God to help them and to be there for them.
 i dont believe though.
Logged

IRC

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2007, 02:52:12 pm »
I'm sorry if the truth is hard to hear, but someone better tell it before all commit suicide for there faith in religion.
Logged
Cop is my legacy.

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2007, 03:01:34 pm »
Purplehaze->
As you said, people believe in God because it comforts them. As I said before, delusion is never the way out. So you support that people take the so-called blue pill and live in eternal ignorance, slowing down mankind's progress and science? Religious people just waste some of their life away due to faith, while at the same time atheists or agnostics enjoy their life (not just physically, mentally/spiritually too) and some of them (scientists) actually help us evolve. The existance of the so-called Afterlife is merely based on blind hope, would you really want to base your life on something which is almost certainly not true? Besides, even if there was an afterlife, I'd rather be in hell with some murderers but mostly normal people, than in heaven with religious fanatics  ;D

As some of you pointed out, religion is mostly so great because it offers ''hope, comfort'' etc. But believing in something without any proper base to do so, and at the same time belittling science or anything that goes against their false arguments, is very ignorant. It would have been considered normal in the Dark Ages, but nowadays it should have no place in people's heads. As I said - it's a remnant of time. So, not only is religion in the way of progress, it's also dumbing down the believers. A perfect example of religious ignorance is Master in this thread. Buddy, learn the difference between words ''know'' and ''hope''. You know absolutely nothing, you have only blind hope. Knowledge should be based on evidence and facts. Religion is mostly based on an ancient fairy tale. I could also note the violence part, but that has been discussed about enough already.

RuN->
Please stop spamming, IRC had some kind of a (even if it's a little) point. Besides, if you would discuss religious matters with some ignorant christian, who lives in denial (see Haggard vs Dawkins video above), then you'd be pretty pissed off too ;O If you feel like warning someone for posting an arrogant/senseless post, then warn Master instead.

Amy->
What are you talking about? It's highly probable that we are NOT alone in the universe, considering it's size.
True love, care and help come from your close ones, not from a fairy tale charecter, don't you agree? :)
Logged

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2007, 11:05:58 pm »
I've thought of another point. God is simply a personification for what we humans call hope. Thats a summary for most the posts that have been posted above.

Heres the video where I got the praying to a milk jug thing. Watch it and be enlightened!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI
Logged

Aerius

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2007, 11:16:21 pm »
i dont belive god, but i want to belive that my dead fellows are in better place now.

Edit*
i belive in karma
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 11:20:58 pm by Aerius »
Logged

[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2007, 11:24:57 pm »
Edit*
i belive in karma

Karma has been disabled ;(

Kiwi said it, religion gives people hope.
Logged

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2007, 11:48:20 pm »
Kiwi said it, religion gives people hope.
You mean delusion and denial? ;P
Logged

ShadowShark

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2007, 12:16:10 am »
well, the question that whoever posted this (sorry i forget ill edit when im done with the post) is a good question, it has an infinite possibility of answers, but my answer is this:

Religon is what most people use to explain the unexplainable things in nature (not always true), im catholic, and i donno any good things, but without religon, my life would be a mess
Logged

Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2007, 01:57:28 am »
Religon is what most people use to explain the unexplainable things in nature (not always true), im catholic, and i donno any good things, but without religon, my life would be a mess
USA Government, Agency plots , Extra Terestrials, Ghosts... equals not Religion...
Logged

Desmond

  • 5 4 5 8 7 7 5 5 4 3 7 7 6 1 1 3 <-- the first music title! (aint it gay and lovely Haze)
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +80/-16
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1380
  • 3488 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Desmond
  • Beautiful madness.
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2007, 02:07:43 am »
Religon is what most people use to explain the unexplainable things in nature (not always true), im catholic, and i donno any good things, but without religon, my life would be a mess
USA Government, Agency plots , Extra Terestrials, Ghosts... equals not Religion...

Indeed. Aliens = Rachel Nevada, right on the edge of Nevada State 375. That's 3 kilometers away from Dream Land. Dream land is fine, attractive land owned by the US Government in Nevada. Attractive land containing an airstrip that sees a day in, day out steady stream of UFO traffic. Yes, Area 51, Watertown strip, Paradise Ranch, Groom Lake, the Farm or even the Detachment. In big : ET Central. Doubt it is a religion.
Logged

Mr. Pimp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2007, 02:23:43 am »
I believe in a higher power.  I don't believe we evolved from monkey's, though I have to agree that it is a possibility.  I do believe there are other beings like us, dubbed aliens.  What I don't believe in is fake people who fake their religions.  Like omg I go to church, so thus I am going to Heaven.  I believe this is wrong.

If you are a good person(their are many definitions), then I think you are promised some kind of afterlife.  Wouldn't it suck ass to just die and that be the end of you.  Sometimes I think about that, and it is really depressing.  Another possibility is if you don't do your deed that you are supposed to accomplished in your life, you get re-incarnated.  That is a whole different matter, but again a possibility that I believe in.

Or everything that science has proven is true, and we really did evolve from monkey's.  Again this is not my belief, but in all reality this is a possibility.  Don't call me a flip flopper and tell me that "oh, if you think it is a possibility your not a true believer."  No not really, I am just a realist folks.

Anyway that felt awesome to talk about that.
Logged
Prize Rebel My referral links  This site actually works!
http://www.prizerebel.com/index.php?r=445079

Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2007, 02:36:52 am »
Purplehaze->
As you said, people believe in God because it comforts them. As I said before, (1)delusion is never the way out. So you support that people take the so-called blue pill and live in eternal ignorance, slowing down mankind's progress and science? Religious people just waste some of their life away due to faith, while at the same time atheists or agnostics enjoy their life (not just physically, mentally/spiritually too) and some of them (scientists) actually help us evolve. (2)The existance of the so-called Afterlife is merely based on blind hope, would you really want to base your life on something which is almost certainly not true? Besides, even if there was an afterlife, I'd rather be in hell with some murderers but mostly normal people, than in heaven with religious fanatics  ;D

As some of you pointed out, religion is mostly so great because it offers ''hope, comfort'' etc. But believing in something without any proper base to do so, and at the (3)same time belittling science or anything that goes against their false arguments, is very ignorant. It would have been considered normal in the Dark Ages, but nowadays it should have no place in people's heads. As I said - it's a remnant of time. (4)So, not only is religion in the way of progress, it's also dumbing down the believers. A perfect example of religious ignorance is Master in this thread. (5)Buddy, learn the difference between words ''know'' and ''hope''. You know absolutely nothing, you have only blind hope. Knowledge should be based on evidence and facts. Religion is mostly based on an ancient fairy tale. I could also note the violence part, but that has been discussed about enough already.
1) Delusion? As in hope and faith?
2) You know, after-life is not just a thought for people to feel comforted. it provides a goal for people to achieve when they act morally. Say there was no 'blind-hope' that there were perhaps one after-life for morally-challenged people and one for moral people. What the **** is the incentive for the moral people to continue being nice when there is no ultimate difference between their lives and the lives of murderers, thieves, rapists and such? Without hope or good faith, the only thing to drive people's actions would be incentives. There would be no such thing as charity or good will. It'd be a strictly economic society. I guess at first an economic society wouldn't sound bad to you....but people are born into social differences. There are poor people and then there are rich people. There are abled people, then there are disabled people. The world is unfair and an economic society would not function. Then what happens? Jealously, greed, extortion. Don't you even dare tell me that humans have an innate sense of transcendence.
3) Ignorant statement. As you said, there are fanatics out there and only fanatics can make such claims. Generalizing the population shouldn't be a valid argument.
4) Ignorant statement. If you live in the 21st century (which I am starting to doubt even tho it's illogical), there are different types of intelligences. Intrapersonal, Interpersonal, science related and so on. Can you honestly tell me that people of religion are spiritually fine personed or intrapersonally fine personed? Or even interpersonally fine personed? How can they be dumbing themselves down? Okay, that's besides the point...but it's still pretty ignorant to think that just because religious people believe in an ultimate creator, they'll shun all other theories to explain things in life.
5) You mean the difference between belief and knowledge? I don't understand how you can undermine 'belief' as a way of knowing things. What makes knowledge so concrete to you? Empirical observation, right? As in you can see it with your own eyes.  It's true, most of religion cannot be seen. That's why 'knowledge' in religion is called 'belief'. (I'll elaborate after you answer my question at the bottom).

I have a question for you. Do you "know" history? Or do you "believe" history?
Logged
Quote
Oh my God, every one just shut up.

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2007, 02:39:25 am »
Pimp->
Do you actually know anything about evolution to make that kind of statements?
Human did not evolve from monkeys, monkeys and humans have the same ancestors. Evolution is a scientific fact, and if you'd actually learned it a little (even the simple basics), you'd understand that.
Yea, it sucks that you just die, but just accepting that is better than living in denial.
Everything that science has proven IS true. I understand that you can question theories, but how on earth can you question scientific facts that are proven?
Logged

Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2007, 02:42:11 am »
Everything that science has proven IS true.

After you ****ing kidding me? If you know the basics of science, you'd know that there are things called uncertainties. As in random possibilities straying from the general consensus result. I can't hardly accept that 'facts' with uncertainties is known as 'the truth'.

Logged
Quote
Oh my God, every one just shut up.

MissingNo.

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2007, 02:43:56 am »
When you get right down to it though, nobody really knows whether or not God, Heaven, Hell, etc. is real. We don't know because we've been told that there is a such thing for thousands of years. I , for one, don't believe in them. I do think it is good to have something to believe in though. What I don't like are people who are extreme with their religion. I'm not a fan of having their beliefs and their God(s) shoved down my throat.
If there is a God or Goddess, it really shouldn't matter what your religion is though. As long as, like Mr. Pimp said, you are good, then you should get into some kind of afterlife.

Desmond

  • 5 4 5 8 7 7 5 5 4 3 7 7 6 1 1 3 <-- the first music title! (aint it gay and lovely Haze)
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +80/-16
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1380
  • 3488 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Desmond
  • Beautiful madness.
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2007, 02:46:42 am »
Everything that science has proven IS true.

After you ****ing kidding me? If you know the basics of science, you'd know that there are things called uncertainties. As in random possibilities straying from the general consensus result. I can't hardly accept that 'facts' with uncertainties is known as 'the truth'.



Word. Science has proven stuff in the past, then another discovery makes the first proof obsolete and untrue at all.
Logged

Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2007, 02:48:57 am »
First of all we need to get past the key issue. "What is religion"? e.g. is religion in this case limited to the organized ones (namely Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism to mention the 5 major ones)? Or do we transcend past that and let religion be a personal matter?

If you want answers to why people believe in organized religion (although they don't really, they just believe in their own little version of the religion), it's not that hard to answer. The promise of afterlife, the belonging to a group, the feeling that there is someone out there waching over us and convinience to name a few. Basically selfish reasons. You also gotta remember that science has been around for AAAAAGEEES. The amount of people who does believe in some sort of religion has not really changed all that much in those years. Most of this change is that people are more confident about proclaiming their belief than before since you wont get your head chopped off theese days for denying the holy spirit. Well at least not everywhere that is.

If we're talking about personal belief, I'm afraid that's never gonna change. Which IMO is a good thing. I'm with Einstein on this, and don't think that science should exist withouth religion (e.g. personal belief, not organized ones.) People will always have their personal beliefs and convincements. And science will always struggle to convince people. It's easy to spot the pattern if you look at history. Science may seem all convincing to some people, and today they GOT IT. Or w/e, but it's not gonna change anytime soon.

Science will always make progress and get better and better. And people will always ask theese questions. The one factor people always seem to forget though, is that EVERYONE has a different outlook on life than the other one. We think today that the world is an objective thing everyone sees the same way, and people choose willingly to be good or evil. And this world is displayed adequate enough through science. This is frankly just a naive belief. 

Oh yes, science gives us results. Doubtlessly. If it weren't for science I wouldn't be typing this on a computer. But what people seem to think is that since science has started to figure out the basic (though not fundamental) mechanical functions of the world, it should also figure out the basis of the secret of life. It doesn't. Science hasn't even figured out how most of our brain works in the daily life yet even. The farthest we've come to understanding the brain is knowing which areas are used during different types of thinking and situations. But we are still rather clueless when it comes to what actually goes up in there. How can we understand ourself, much less the nature of the circumstances around us, when we can't even manage to comprehend how our seemingly most important organ functions? Also, where is this exiting proof that there is no god? I am very curious about this...
Logged
26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2007, 02:54:36 am »
I call out Kurt's statement "evolution is a fact". This should be interesting if he does walk the walk.
Logged
Quote
Oh my God, every one just shut up.

Mr. Pimp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2007, 02:59:35 am »
Kurt human evolution is the theory that humans evolved from primates, and or some ancestor of primates.  i have seen both.

I don't really like how your trying to force you opinions on everybody.  Some things are not proven, and are just speculation.  I wish you could open your closed mind, and really explore all options man.  Did I ever say that evolution couldn't be possible?  But it sure isn't the only thing that is.
Logged
Prize Rebel My referral links  This site actually works!
http://www.prizerebel.com/index.php?r=445079

Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2007, 03:01:50 am »
Pimp->
Do you actually know anything about evolution to make that kind of statements?
Human did not evolve from monkeys, monkeys and humans have the same ancestors. Evolution is a scientific fact, and if you'd actually learned it a little (even the simple basics), you'd understand that.
Yea, it sucks that you just die, but just accepting that is better than living in denial.
Everything that science has proven IS true. I understand that you can question theories, but how on earth can you question scientific facts that are proven?

The evolutionary theory is per se a scientific theory that is backed up by scientific facts. The evolutionairy theory is however not a fact, nor is it random speculation. Evolution is more or less proven on a very small scale, or soccalled microevolution. This lets scientists do the assumption that over millions of years, amazingly many microevolutions in the end created huge gaps between species. That's how I got all of it. Now I am of the opinion that microevolution is more or less happening, but I am however uncertain wether I believe macroevolution happened yet. I see how things point in that direction, but I have no need to believe that it actually happened yet. Mostly because I usually only trust science that can be observed in either real time, or in a scientific way throughout it's timelapse. Currently macro-evolution takes far too much time for it to meet the criteria at me. That is my stance on the theory, and I think it should be questioned as much as possible. If we stop questioning assumed facts, guess what will happen... Yes, scientific progress will stop.

Also, I don't see how science is such a high authority that it has to be believed withouth question. All I can think of is that the questioning should be valid as opposed to just question for the sake of questioning.
Logged
26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Mr. Pimp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2007, 03:06:16 am »
Ah I see what you are saying Gaston.  That we were put on here somehow, and that now we are evolving, but we didn't evolve in the very beginning.


BTW- Thank you for saying that Evolution itself is not a fact, and that science isn't the higher power.  You really can't believe everything that seems to be force fed into you.

Another one for ya Kurt.  Why do you think people have a conscience?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 03:10:13 am by Mr. Pimp »
Logged
Prize Rebel My referral links  This site actually works!
http://www.prizerebel.com/index.php?r=445079

Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2007, 03:37:16 am »
If you are a good person(their are many definitions), then I think you are promised some kind of afterlife.  Wouldn't it suck ass to just die and that be the end of you.  Sometimes I think about that, and it is really depressing.  Another possibility is if you don't do your deed that you are supposed to accomplished in your life, you get re-incarnated.  That is a whole different matter, but again a possibility that I believe in.
No it wouldn't suck ass to just die and that be the end of me (us). I think of it like this... Thinking, getting frustrated and depressed about this matter will only waste my life. There is no "law" or granted will there is an afterlife so I won't **** my life up just to supposely "live longer". I rather live as I want when I live for sure. Living my free way is enough for me, I don't need an extra missions pack after death.

Science will always make progress and get better and better. And people will always ask theese questions. The one factor people always seem to forget though, is that EVERYONE has a different outlook on life than the other one. We think today that the world is an objective thing everyone sees the same way, and people choose willingly to be good or evil. And this world is displayed adequate enough through science. This is frankly just a naive belief. 

Oh yes, science gives us results. Doubtlessly. If it weren't for science I wouldn't be typing this on a computer. But what people seem to think is that since science has started to figure out the basic (though not fundamental) mechanical functions of the world, it should also figure out the basis of the secret of life. It doesn't. Science hasn't even figured out how most of our brain works in the daily life yet even. The farthest we've come to understanding the brain is knowing which areas are used during different types of thinking and situations. But we are still rather clueless when it comes to what actually goes up in there. How can we understand ourself, much less the nature of the circumstances around us, when we can't even manage to comprehend how our seemingly most important organ functions?
About that brain part... science uncovered some secrets of brain but not all. So my question is what did religion do here? Is there even an answer to that question (how do the brain work?) from the religious aspect?

Also, where is this existing proof that there is no god? I am very curious about this...
This is pointless as there is the exact equivalent opposite "Where is this existing proof that there is god?". We cannot define which question should be asked first.

Another one for ya Kurt.  Why do you think people have a conscience?
I'm not Kurt but I will answer that anyway. Because people have feelings. Feelings for right and wrong. You want to say "because I believe this is the right thing to do" but that's not true. You feel like this is the right thing to do. If everything was based on pure belief, there wouldn't be disagreements. We would all believe in same things. So I dare to say that belief is partialy a consequence of feelings. Not all have guilty conscience.

Here is my question... What was there before - the belief in religion or science? Did the caveman first poke his stick up his fella or did he first see the thunder and praise it for the act of god? Perhaps the lightning lighted a fire to the caveman. He took the burning branch to his cave and kept the fire going for some time so he was warm. And at the exact same time he realised he can have fire to be warm in cave he perhaps also thanked "the creature from above" to send him the fire in first place. (Talking about human life since we don't know about belief of other animals (and flowers).) We will never know what was first (unless a scientist builds a time-machine and travels back in time to check it up). But there is one thing for sure... both things came out as a product of humans (religion and science). I mean how the hack do we know we are even real? This can all be my imagination. I can be dreaming everything that ever existed. There are questions and answers greater than science and god. No point for us immortal non-scientists to even debate them.
Logged

Asrack

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2007, 03:38:09 am »
I wanna see some articals on what science has proven wrong in the bible. I don't believe in the bible, but I would love to see this.
Also, Every way someone has thought of we came to bo on this planet is a theory. Evolution, Scientology, Biblical, other religious ways. It's all theories, and none has been proven.

Here is a question, Religion, why not?
I mean, it keeps people in line, it helps people along in there days, months, and years. I don't see the big deal. I can understand not believing it to a certian point, the only bad thing I believe about it, is that people allow it to be in politics. Once religion is moved from politics life will be ever so much better. What does it matter to you if someone is sitting in Chruch on a Sunday morning...? As long as they are not telling you to believe in what they believe I can't see a problem.
Logged

Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2007, 03:44:08 am »
We must not think of it as Science vs. God. We know too little to do that yet. I don't know for how long there will be this "which one?" but I'm sure we won't figure it for the loooong time. What happens when we break that enigma? Apocalypse?
Logged

MissingNo.

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2007, 03:45:35 am »
I wanna see some articals on what science has proven wrong in the bible. I don't believe in the bible, but I would love to see this.
Also, Every way someone has thought of we came to bo on this planet is a theory. Evolution, Scientology, Biblical, other religious ways. It's all theories, and none has been proven.

Here is a question, Religion, why not?
I mean, it keeps people in line, it helps people along in there days, months, and years. I don't see the big deal. I can understand not believing it to a certian point, the only bad thing I believe about it, is that people allow it to be in politics. Once religion is moved from politics life will be ever so much better. What does it matter to you if someone is sitting in Chruch on a Sunday morning...? As long as they are not telling you to believe in what they believe I can't see a problem.
Well, science didn't disprove it but it was proven false nonetheless. Where it says Jesus rose from the dead behind the rock was added recently to the bible. So, unless somebody went the to past, that is false.
I have some questions though, since we're having a wonderful discussion/debate.
1. What do you think the meaning of life is?
2. What do you think of Satan?

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2007, 03:49:35 am »
Everything that science has proven IS true.

After you ****ing kidding me? If you know the basics of science, you'd know that there are things called uncertainties. As in random possibilities straying from the general consensus result. I can't hardly accept that 'facts' with uncertainties is known as 'the truth'.



Word. Science has proven stuff in the past, then another discovery makes the first proof obsolete and untrue at all.

Can't go past this without saying something.

Science does'nt just prove things it also disproves things originally perceived as the truth in science. Science unlike religions goes back and trials old theories with new evidence to see if they are true. Science it's self evolves. Religion simply goes by on a crusty book of questionable origin and accuracy. A devout christian will look at the grand canyon and think "The great flood caused that" while a geologist will look at it not as a whole but as a contrustion made up of layers of bed rock and already known facts and will reach the conclusion that the grand canyon took thousands if not millions of years of wearing (Erosion is not the proper word for this process, as any budding or intelligent geologist will know.) down. Sure it has been made by floods (Emphasis on the plural), but none of them are close to the super flood the bible "Claims" happened.

As a few of you may know sea fossils have been found on Mt. Everest and through out that moutain range that I cannot spell. This is simply tectonic plates forcing land that was once under the sea upwards. (During a great flood so to speak that happened hundreds of millions of years before humanity even existed) There is a tiny substance within rocks that do this called Zircon. Everytime a rock goes through this million year process the zircon gathers another shell around the core of itself. Rather like the rings on the inside of a tree, it can tell us how many times this particular rock has under gone this process of montinous proportions. (Sorry could'nt help myself :D)

Science-X*
Religion-0

*The uncountable number of times science has conquered over religion.


P.S. Asrack thats two examples.
Logged

Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2007, 03:53:24 am »
1. The meaning of life is to live for a bunch of random feelings.
2. Like every hero has antagonist to fight, same is with god. If there was noone/nothing to fight, he/she/it wouldn't be a hero in first place.
Logged

MissingNo.

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2007, 03:56:12 am »
1. The meaning of life is to live for a bunch of random feelings.
2. Like every hero has antagonist to fight, same is with god. If there was noone/nothing to fight, he/she/it wouldn't be a hero in first place.
I kinda agree, but who said Satan was evil? He's bad, but not evil. Once he was cast to Hell, he wasn't a problem anymore.

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2007, 03:58:44 am »
The Meaning of life? Never too know it, who cares. Too many have wasted their lives in search of it and many more will. I don't care I just wanna live.

I read in some religeous book or on some religious website that hell is simply a prison for satan and thats not actually supposed to a horrible thing to other people. It's supposed to just be the jail in which he his held and like any prisoner he wants to escape. Thats all. I don't much about Satan and I don't believe in god so I don't believe in Satan either. I believe in inner demons.
Logged

Shade

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2007, 05:45:03 am »
Meaning of Life is to live each day like its your last.
Have fun.
Logged
One day you'll just be a memory for some people, do your best to be a good one.

Desmond

  • 5 4 5 8 7 7 5 5 4 3 7 7 6 1 1 3 <-- the first music title! (aint it gay and lovely Haze)
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +80/-16
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1380
  • 3488 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Desmond
  • Beautiful madness.
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2007, 06:19:53 am »
Meaning of Life is to live each day like its your last.
Have fun.

That's not what it means, that's how you think it should be liven. Too much Carpe Diem is bad.
Logged

Asrack

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2007, 06:30:26 am »
And how do you know what the meaning is?

Before you go throwing stuff around, how about giving some information to support your answer. :)
Logged

Wasabi_Warrior

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2007, 06:43:38 am »
And how do you know what the meaning is?

Before you go throwing stuff around, how about giving some information to support your answer. :)
Gotta hand that one 2 ya, ur right.
Who says Satan doesnt exist, and who says hell actually exists?  ???
Meaning of Life? Who cares? If we sit and think of the meaning for 2 long, u might not have any life to live left. Now, stop asking hard questions, and find urself a server to die on  :P
Logged
The chances of 1 bomb being an a plane are a one in a million.
The chances of 2 bombs being an a plane are one in a million times a million.
Next time you fly, cut the odds and bring a bomb.

MissingNo.

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2007, 06:51:43 am »
And how do you know what the meaning is?

Before you go throwing stuff around, how about giving some information to support your answer. :)
Gotta hand that one 2 ya, ur right.
Who says Satan doesnt exist, and who says hell actually exists?  ???
Meaning of Life? Who cares? If we sit and think of the meaning for 2 long, u might not have any life to live left. Now, stop asking hard questions, and find urself a server to die on  :P
No need to be moderately rude. Besides, I've already died my fair share of times today. I was just curious as to what people thought. I do agree with you though, if you think about it too much, you won't have any life to live left. What I was going to get at though is that Satan cannot be evil. Even though I'm Atheist and I don't read the Bible, it clearly says that God has to approve of what Satan does. Therefore, for Satan to be evil, God has to be equally as evil, if not more. People blame stuff on the devil all the time, which is quite dumb. The only thing that Satan has done wrong at all is rebel against God. He didn't kill anyone, he didn't rape anyone, he only did that.
The Bible contradicts itself a lot too. It's also sexist.

Wasabi_Warrior

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2007, 06:55:38 am »
I dont see why god would aprove? i mean, he is god, he is perfect, Satan disobeyed, god lets him run the world, just to prove that only god has the qualifications to do it. ALong the way Jesus steps in, and he helps god. Done. Satan has finished, he dies.
Logged
The chances of 1 bomb being an a plane are a one in a million.
The chances of 2 bombs being an a plane are one in a million times a million.
Next time you fly, cut the odds and bring a bomb.

Asrack

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2007, 07:01:52 am »
mMmMm...

Quote
I dont see why god would aprove? i mean, he is god, he is perfect, Satan disobeyed, god lets him run the world, just to prove that only god has the qualifications to do it. ALong the way Jesus steps in, and he helps god. Done. Satan has finished, he dies.

Satan dosent run the world. He runs the underworld. If people sin in there life, they are sent to hell. Where Satan punishes them. Jesus in some religions is god in human form. Also, may I rememind you, he won't save us from Satan, cause Satan will not conqour Earth. His son will come, the Anti-Christ and will attempt to rule the world.
Logged

MissingNo.

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2007, 07:02:35 am »
I dont see why god would aprove? i mean, he is god, he is perfect, Satan disobeyed, god lets him run the world, just to prove that only god has the qualifications to do it. ALong the way Jesus steps in, and he helps god. Done. Satan has finished, he dies.
He doesn't exactly die, he goes to Hell. Which is, more or less, a prison. I wouldn't know why he/she/it would approve, I'm just saying what the Bible said. Maybe God needs Satan to make him/her/it look good. Or maybe God is evil as well. As you said, God is perfect, that doesn't mean he/she/it is automatically good. God has to be evil as well.

Wasabi_Warrior

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2007, 07:10:38 am »
I think im gonna get annoyed here, but who cares? There are so many theories about who is what and what happens that this thread could stay alive for years to come. There is no point for me posting here if all that happens is you get contradicted. Still, im interested. . .
Logged
The chances of 1 bomb being an a plane are a one in a million.
The chances of 2 bombs being an a plane are one in a million times a million.
Next time you fly, cut the odds and bring a bomb.

MissingNo.

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2007, 07:14:20 am »
I think im gonna get annoyed here, but who cares? There are so many theories about who is what and what happens that this thread could stay alive for years to come. There is no point for me posting here if all that happens is you get contradicted. Still, im interested. . .
This is what happens when you debate about religion. A lot of people contradict one another. That's why I was surprised when this topic was made. It'll probably end up getting locked after a while. I wouldn't get annoyed though and not post here ever again, I know what I believe and you know what you believe. It's just good to get more information on a topic such as this. If you don't agree, then that's fine. Not everyone is going to agree on the same thing.

Wasabi_Warrior

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2007, 07:19:10 am »
Who said i wasnt gonna post? Im just gonna watch from the sidelines tho, see what others think. . .may-b throw in a comment here and there
Logged
The chances of 1 bomb being an a plane are a one in a million.
The chances of 2 bombs being an a plane are one in a million times a million.
Next time you fly, cut the odds and bring a bomb.

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2007, 07:21:12 am »
mMmMm...

Quote
I dont see why god would aprove? i mean, he is god, he is perfect, Satan disobeyed, god lets him run the world, just to prove that only god has the qualifications to do it. ALong the way Jesus steps in, and he helps god. Done. Satan has finished, he dies.

Satan dosent run the world. He runs the underworld. If people sin in there life, they are sent to hell. Where Satan punishes them. Jesus in some religions is god in human form. Also, may I rememind you, he won't save us from Satan, cause Satan will not conqour Earth. His son will come, the Anti-Christ and will attempt to rule the world.

In latin or some other ancient language or culture (yes I am aware Latin was not a culture!) when twins were born one twin had Anti added to the start of his/her name. So let's say some twins were born. Twin one's name is Asrack twin two is Anti-Asrack. Let us now replace "Asrack" with "Christ" twin one: Christ Twin two: Antichrist.
Logged

Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2007, 11:41:53 am »
About that brain part... science uncovered some secrets of brain but not all. So my question is what did religion do here? Is there even an answer to that question (how do the brain work?) from the religious aspect?


There are answers from religions yes. But I doubt many of them would be anywhere near adequate enough to really describe what's going on up in there. But my point wasn't that religion is better than science. Far from it. Infact I think Science is preferable to 99% of the organized religions. At least when looking for answers on how our world actually seems to operate. However though, my point was that some people act as if science has uncovered all mysteries of life now, which really is as far from the truth as one can get. Science has barely scraped the surface as of yet. And with that in mind, I don't think anyone (unless they know something VERY signifigant that the public does not), are in a position to say that science has uncovered all mysterious about life and disproven God etc. etc.

Also, where is this existing proof that there is no god? I am very curious about this...
This is pointless as there is the exact equivalent opposite "Where is this existing proof that there is god?". We cannot define which question should be asked first.

Yes, I understand your question, and I've heard it dozen of times, however I was a little poor in my reference there. I meant to ask this question to Orchid, who seems to claim that science has more or less proven that God does not exist. I had no intention trying to say that people who does not believe in God, should submit proof as that discussion is completely pointless and has been done a milion times before at least.
Logged
26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2007, 11:51:24 am »
I dont see why god would aprove? i mean, he is god, he is perfect, Satan disobeyed, god lets him run the world, just to prove that only god has the qualifications to do it. ALong the way Jesus steps in, and he helps god. Done. Satan has finished, he dies.
He doesn't exactly die, he goes to Hell. Which is, more or less, a prison. I wouldn't know why he/she/it would approve, I'm just saying what the Bible said. Maybe God needs Satan to make him/her/it look good. Or maybe God is evil as well. As you said, God is perfect, that doesn't mean he/she/it is automatically good. God has to be evil as well.

This is an interesting subject. If anyone has read the book of Job (which is in the bible), you'll see that God and Satan makes a bet. Job is a very rich and happy guy, and he is like the ultimate believer in God, and is really God's favourite. Then God and Satan makes a bet to see if he would believe if all he loved was taken away from him. So eventually satan takes all his riches from him, kills his whole family, but Job still believes in God, almost more now than before. So God gives him everything back 10 times except his family who is now dead of course. And Job continiues to praise the lord.

Unless I am mistaken this is the ONLY people Satan ever kills in the book that is the bible. And this is with permission from God as well. While God is responsible for many more deaths, commanding people to kill other people, killing other people directly etc. So one could ask oneself wether the bad guy in the old testamente really was God (YHWH) or if it was Lucifer, the fallen angel.
Logged
26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2007, 03:18:36 pm »
About evolution not being a fact->
It has tons of proof on it, hell, even animal or flower breeding is evolution, no? With such piles of evidence it's silly to still call it just a theory. Obviously it has some holes in it, but there are also proven facts.
What does christianity have about this? Only an ancient scribbling without any proof behind it. But people still believe this because it gives them ''comfort'' and ''hope''

Kray->
1) You shouldn't expound delusion as hope and faith. Hope for me means something like this - ''I hope Real Madrid wins the Champions League this year''
Real Madrid is a real football club, they take part in Champions league this year and they are pretty good. So this so-called hope of mine has some base to build it up on. Delusion, blind hope - ''I hope my heavenly father will cure my sickness''. Nothing to base that hope upon, simply denial.
2) You know, morality exist perfectly well without religion too. Religious people just hype religion because it is so morally correct and blablabla. All in all I'd say that religious extremists cause more crimes than atheists, talk about moral? I know that ''you and your family aren't extremists'', but in any christian society there is bound to be some... Besides look at the ones in third world countries. For not being a murderer or rapist, your simple incentive is that you're going to be butt-raped in jail. Also you won't be thrown out of society etc etc.
Your hilarious plans of the world collapsing without religion are nice, btw :P
3) As much as I've been into christian forums, everyone there belittles evolution theory, big bang theory and the general progress of science.
4) I heard on a documentary that a lot of american schools refuse to teach evolution. This was a few years ago though, maybe it's better now. Also, christianity will always base their values on an ancient book that is never going to change. Science bases values and beliefs on discoveries. Even the social moral values are changing (homosexual tolerance etc) but the christians still fight against everything new. Standing against progress, inserting christian propaganda into children's heads - dumbing down the society + growing a new generation of dumbasses as well.
5) Of course belief and knowledge are totally different. Master there was pointing out that they're the same though. Knowledge is not only based on what you can see, it's based on your other senses too. And science can also find out about things that our senses can't, so that's another thing. About history - I believe it. I remain skeptic about it as for one, the content highly depends on who wrote the thing and for two, I can never be sure if it's true in the first place.
About uncertainities - What is religion? One big uncertainty. Maybe I took this science praising too far, of course some things can be wrong. But science being right is so much more probable than religion being right.

Obviously people can belive in a higher power, as science hasn't and probably won't in the nearest future prove that it doesn't exist. But if you literally belive that there is a god, jesus, satan etc and that you actually go to hell if you murder someone, then you aren't being very clever. Why would you take a fairy tale literally?

Gaston->
Isn't dog and flower breeding macroevolution?

Asrack->
You can view both evolution and creatonism as a theory if you wish, but now check out which one has more proof behind it?
Religion - why not? While the bigger part of religious people are peaceful, they always have some extremists in
them. Crimes commited by extremists + the belittling of mankind's progress does not count, right? As long as some guy gets to go to church and live in delusion?

What I don't like about religious people is that the majority of them don't question their beliefs. They don't question the bible because it's 100% true obviously. They only mock scientific studies, discoveries and theories. How was progress supposed to happen if everybody was like that? People in this thread are obviously smarter than that, but that's honestly what I see when I visit a christian forum.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 03:28:27 pm by Orch!D »
Logged

Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2007, 03:44:00 pm »
About evolution not being a fact->
It has tons of proof on it, hell, even animal or flower breeding is evolution, no? With such piles of evidence it's silly to still call it just a theory. Obviously it has some holes in it, but there are also proven facts.
It's not silly to call the theory of evolution for a theory. That's what science does. The phenomenon of evolution is a scientific fact, but the theory that todays species has evolved from completely different species, is still a scientific theory. However calling it a scientific theory is not a bad thing. As a scientific theory has to hold up to scrutiny for it to remain a scientific theory. That being said, evolution is one of the strongest scientific theories we have. But keep in mind that in a worst/best (however you choose to view it) scenario, just ONE fossil is enough to whip the whole theory off it's feet, and make it fall to the ground. So even though it has very solid evidence for itself, one can never be completely sure that it actually will hold up forever.


Gaston->
Isn't dog and flower breeding macroevolution?

If you count that as evolution, then species dieing out is also macroevolution, and humans from different races as well. A better example than dog and flowerbreeding to put forward your point would be cross-species breeding. Like for example wolfs and dogs. This has happened, and has given room for a half-half species.

However, that isn't really what's meant with macroevolution by scientific standards. Macroevolution by scientific standards comes from immensly much microevolution. e.g. macroevolution wont happen naturally within a few generations. e.g. macroevolution isn't really supposed to occour so to speak. It's all microevolution, and the only way to see the macroevolution taking place would be to be able to travel through quite a big period of time. It will take much more time for it to occour so that it is very hard to observe in real time. This is at least up till now what the theory of evolution has been about. This is a grey area though, but if one is to argue that macroevolution is something that happends naturally within a few generations, very much of the theory of evolution needs to be adjusted to conform that view.
Logged
26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2007, 03:59:19 pm »
Could you perhaps elaborate such a scenario? Ever since Darwin and Wallace presented the theory, all the fossil discoveries haven't still ''knocked it off it's feet''. The discoveries have supplemented the theory, not contradicted it. The discoveries have developed our minds, but the main understanding stays the same, no? Of course everything is possible, but it's not very probable that one single fossil can change the whole line of discoveries before that. It can give us new views on the subject though.

If a man picks out the finest breed examples from a pile of puppies and mates them with similar fine examples to get prettier or stronger descendants, is that not man-controlled evolution?
Logged

Master

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2007, 04:18:40 pm »
EvolutionTheory sucks! Yeah!

Logged

Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2007, 04:49:03 pm »
Could you perhaps elaborate such a scenario? Ever since Darwin and Wallace presented the theory, all the fossil discoveries haven't still ''knocked it off it's feet''. The discoveries have supplemented the theory, not contradicted it. The discoveries have developed our minds, but the main understanding stays the same, no? Of course everything is possible, but it's not very probable that one single fossil can change the whole line of discoveries before that. It can give us new views on the subject though.

If a man picks out the finest breed examples from a pile of puppies and mates them with similar fine examples to get prettier or stronger descendants, is that not man-controlled evolution?

For example a Rabbitfossil from  the Precambrian age (4500 millions year ago to 542 million years ago). Pretty much everything we "knew" about evolution would have to be reconsidered if such a finding is ever made.
Logged
26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Mr. Pimp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2007, 05:34:07 pm »
If a man picks out the finest breed examples from a pile of puppies and mates them with similar fine examples to get prettier or stronger descendants, is that not man-controlled evolution?
Yes that is man-controlled evolution.  But that doesn't mean we(human beings) have descended from something else.  This hasn't been proven by fact.  Its a theory. 
Logged
Prize Rebel My referral links  This site actually works!
http://www.prizerebel.com/index.php?r=445079

Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2007, 06:00:52 pm »

2) Besides look at the ones in third world countries. For not being a murderer or rapist, your simple incentive is that you're going to be butt-raped in jail. Also you won't be thrown out of society etc etc.
Your hilarious plans of the world collapsing without religion are nice, btw :P
4) I heard on a documentary that a lot of american schools refuse to teach evolution. This was a few years ago though, maybe it's better now. Also, christianity will always base their values on an ancient book that is never going to change. Science bases values and beliefs on discoveries. Even the social moral values are changing (homosexual tolerance etc) but the christians still fight against everything new. Standing against progress, inserting christian propaganda into children's heads - dumbing down the society + growing a new generation of dumbasses as well.
5) Of course belief and knowledge are totally different. Master there was pointing out that they're the same though. Knowledge is not only based on what you can see, it's based on your other senses too. And science can also find out about things that our senses can't, so that's another thing. About history - I believe it. I remain skeptic about it as for one, the content highly depends on who wrote the thing and for two, I can never be sure if it's true in the first place.
About uncertainities - What is religion? One big uncertainty. Maybe I took this science praising too far, of course some things can be wrong. But science being right is so much more probable than religion being right.
2) Right, you believe that people will stop doing bad stuff because jail= bad to their asses. People will do bad stuff because 90% of them are impulsive. The first trait of humans is survival. Transcendence (some people actually believe it's innate in humans) comes dead last. If you want to survive, do you think they won't take the chance of doing unlawful things? The police aren't everywhere and you are pretty naive to believe that the concept of jail can embody the concept of incentive to be moral. That in itself is wrong. To me, you do good things because it's your duty. You don't do good things because you're afraid of getting ass-raped. I guess that's the difference between you and I.
4) LOL! Ignorant statement x 2. There are such things as public schools, you know... Geez. Plus, just because the authority tells us about stuff, it takes a little more than that for children to believe it or trust it.
5) Based on your senses, yes, empirical observation. Science can find out about other things our senses can't? Cant religion do the same thing? So basicaly, you're accepting that science has uncertainties but you can't accept that religion is one big uncertainty which is a natural source of belief in itself. You call something "the truth" knowing that it can be wrong. Okay, I won't pick on your words, but how probable must something be for you to "trust" the information and believe it? Total BS. 
Logged
Quote
Oh my God, every one just shut up.

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2007, 09:46:22 pm »
Kray->
2)Hahah, I didn't say the assphobia is the only thing that keeps people off from doing bad. Jail is simply the punishment that is handed out by the authorities. Besides that, you will be thrown out of the society, mocked etc. Once you get out of jail you won't get a normal job anymore, you'll have an awful reputation and so on. You might even get beaten up if you were a rapist or something like that. Not to mention the compunction feeling.
So basically your life will be ruined. And if you don't believe in afterlife then ruining your life is kind of a bad thing.
In extreme occasions survival will always be the dominant instinct of people, religion won't change that.
4) You have no idea what effect mass propaganda can have on the youth. Right now, (soviet) Russia is building up their foreign policy on hate towards the Baltic states, the goverment owns every TV or radio station and they control what goes on air. Even if someone manages to oppose the goverment he will go to jail for being ''corrupt'', go to a mental institute or just go ''missing'' as in killed. So anyway, their media is publishing stories full of lies, bent history and stuff like that. The result - this summer their youth movement had a meeting (the movement itself is very similar to Hitlerjugend btw) and they burned Baltic flags and did stuff like that. Over 10,000 people took part in the meeting. And the movement itself is still new, I don't even wanan know how many people will join it. That's a whole different story I know, but it's just an example. Youth have their own minds, but even those can be bent.
5) It would have to either make sense to me or just be observable using my senses :P

Gaston->
Heheh, that seems like a sci-fi scenario you have there :P
Yea, that could knock evolution off it's feet, but everything is possible.
An alien overlord could land with his giant spaceship in New York and announce everyone that Earth is actually a popular galactic computer game. It's all about the probability.

Pimp->
Ok, theory. Call it that. But check how much facts and discoveries are behind that theory. Not that much valid proof behind the creation ''theory'' though?
Logged

Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2007, 10:08:20 pm »
Gaston->
Heheh, that seems like a sci-fi scenario you have there :P
Yea, that could knock evolution off it's feet, but everything is possible.
An alien overlord could land with his giant spaceship in New York and announce everyone that Earth is actually a popular galactic computer game. It's all about the probability.
I just gave you an example of what could flip the theory on it's head. And it's not as unlikely as you make it out to be. If a rabbit existed in that period, and left a fossil or an imprint of one on the earth, chances are if it still exists, it is way underground, and it would take quite a bit of effort to find it. And thus it is still undiscovered. The scenario of a rabbit living at that age, is perhaps very unlikely due to the theory of evolution, but the theory of evolution is VERY much founded on fossil findings up till now, so to rule completely it out due to the theory of evolution, isn't justified. It is neither justified to be convinced that such a fossil actually exists either, it's nothing we should count on until we potentially have found one. But we should not discount the probability of one existing completely per se.

For the record, IMO if the theory of evolution were ever to be brought down, or modified heavily, I don't think a single fossil would be the entire reason for it. But I believe 1-10 fossil findings would struggle heavily to fit into the theory, and in time  other theories are developed to suit the new findings which would gain more and more support in scientific enviroments, where they would find alternative explanations to the fossils we have found today as well as the newly recovered fossils. I don't count on that happening, but if it were to happen, I'd imagine it would happen in a way similair to that.
Logged
26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2007, 10:56:11 pm »
We could actually be evolved or prehaps even devolved from an alien species. There is the occasional piece of evidence to premote such a thing. Such as the "Star child" skull. Google it. This could easily give birth to the idea of a god. Infact we could have been exiled by another race that did'nt want to share there planet with us. Practically anything could have happened. I recently finished reading a book on Darwins theory of evoloution and Darwin was'nt actually the only one with this theory infact in comparison to another guy whose name I think is Alfred Russel or something he was'nt doing much. Alfred recognised the similarity between humans and primates at the time darwin was identifieing the similarities between several  species of european banaracles. (No joke he actually was)
Logged

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2007, 11:28:12 pm »
We could actually be evolved or prehaps even devolved from an alien species. There is the occasional piece of evidence to premote such a thing. Such as the "Star child" skull. Google it. This could easily give birth to the idea of a god. Infact we could have been exiled by another race that did'nt want to share there planet with us. Practically anything could have happened. I recently finished reading a book on Darwins theory of evoloution and Darwin was'nt actually the only one with this theory infact in comparison to another guy whose name I think is Alfred Russel or something he was'nt doing much. Alfred recognised the similarity between humans and primates at the time darwin was identifieing the similarities between several  species of european banaracles. (No joke he actually was)
Right.. Starchild.
Have you considered the most probable option that it was a normal ancestor of ours, just really physically challenged?
I understand that if they had found more than one of these skulls, then you could actually start an alien theory. But just 1 skull man. DNA testing at Trace Genetics in 2003 recovered mitochondrial DNA and determined that the child had a human mother So the craziest theory you could create would be something like this: An alien from a far away galaxy (who looks notably similar to a human) came to Earth, had sex with a woman and left. ns?

Gaston->
Flipping evolution is not that impossible indeed. But the bible being true is still as stupid as the theory I wrote in the previous post.
Logged

Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2007, 12:19:58 am »
Well I cant see I ever proclaimed the bible to be true, so I don't know why you are bringing that up. Sure creationists and intelligent design people will try to push it into science if the theory of evolution is (partially) disproven. But they are already trying that now, and they'll keep going anyway. All we can do is make sure science remains rational and not is out to manipulate people of truths as religion does very much.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 12:24:33 am by Gaston »
Logged
26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2007, 12:28:39 am »
I personally don't believe that theory, Im just saying it for interest and that it maybe improbable yet it's still possible. Sure Darwin's theory is more probable, His Survival of the fittest makes sense, but the word evoloution only appears in the Origin of species once. Evoloution and Survival of the fittest are linked but not one in the same.

For all of you going on about evoloution being a theory, Is'nt religion simply a theory too?
Logged

Kurt

  • I came here for two things, to kick some ass and to drink some beer, looks like the beer is almost finished.
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +25/-5
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1268
  • 550 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Kurt
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2007, 12:28:56 am »
Gaston->
Totally agree with that man :) It just disgusts me what I see on christian forums though. Maybe I should just keep out of there and save myself from trouble :P
Kiwi->
You could say so indeed, but for me religion doesn't even qualify as a theory. It more falls into the ''fairy tale'' category.
Logged

Oxygen

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2007, 12:50:18 am »
Just remembered this. One of the main points raised against Darwin's theory was that of a guy called Paley. Paley used the eye in comparison to telescopes and said since the telescope had been designed by an intelligent being that the eye was so similar it must have had an intelligent designer also seeing as the similarities between the eye and a telescope were so similar. I think Paley also said something about a watch maker making a watch, but a single watch rarely evolves throughout it's life. An analogue watch stays an analogue and does not evolve into a digital watch. So god in this case is the watchmaker and watchmakers once the watch is sold don't go and change it so darwins theory using the watch thing would be that the watch maker was actually part of the watch. Follow? Im not sure that made entire sense. Anyways who says 14 year olds are stupid?
Logged

Benn0

  • Im a lagging whore, if you see me in your server, PLEASE do not hesitate to kick me out! I HATE LAGGERZ ZOMG MORTORS!
  • LXA Duracell Postworm
  • ******
  • Schwartz: +33/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 910
  • 1117 credits
  • View Inventory
  • Send Money To Benn0
  • Amaranth
Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2007, 08:49:37 am »
Evoloution and Survival of the fittest are linked but not one in the same.

For all of you going on about evoloution being a theory, Is'nt religion simply a theory too?
The evolution we know of is simply based on survival of the fittest/strongest. Weak/crappy genes are sorted out as the bearers dies before they can breed. Eg. compare a green larva with and a white larva on a green meadow (note* both larvas are of the same species, which was originally white. The green one is the first green larva of that species), the white larvas are likely be eaten before they can breed while the green larva is more likely to survive and eventually become a butterfly and breed. The white ones will eventually be out-competed by the green ones beacuse more green genes will pass on.


Religions aren't classified as scientific theories beacuse they doesn't have any ground to stand on.
Logged
Donate rice, improve your vocabulary

Check out Outlawz - The Movie in my profile or directly on Youtube

Krayonaise

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2007, 05:47:30 pm »
Kray->
2)Hahah, I didn't say the assphobia is the only thing that keeps people off from doing bad. Jail is simply the punishment that is handed out by the authorities. Besides that, you will be thrown out of the society, mocked etc. Once you get out of jail you won't get a normal job anymore, you'll have an awful reputation and so on. You might even get beaten up if you were a rapist or something like that. Not to mention the compunction feeling.
So basically your life will be ruined. And if you don't believe in afterlife then ruining your life is kind of a bad thing.
In extreme occasions survival will always be the dominant instinct of people, religion won't change that.
4) You have no idea what effect mass propaganda can have on the youth. Right now, (soviet) Russia is building up their foreign policy on hate towards the Baltic states, the goverment owns every TV or radio station and they control what goes on air. Even if someone manages to oppose the goverment he will go to jail for being ''corrupt'', go to a mental institute or just go ''missing'' as in killed. So anyway, their media is publishing stories full of lies, bent history and stuff like that. The result - this summer their youth movement had a meeting (the movement itself is very similar to Hitlerjugend btw) and they burned Baltic flags and did stuff like that. Over 10,000 people took part in the meeting. And the movement itself is still new, I don't even wanan know how many people will join it. That's a whole different story I know, but it's just an example. Youth have their own minds, but even those can be bent.
5) It would have to either make sense to me or just be observable using my senses :P

Kinda funny how you think what you say is true in every circumstance. Not gonna bother picking around in your theories.
Logged
Quote
Oh my God, every one just shut up.

Gaston

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2007, 05:53:18 pm »
For all of you going on about evoloution being a theory, Is'nt religion simply a theory too?

Evolution is a scientific theory, religions are not scientific theories. That's the main difference here. You should really read up on what scientific theories are. And you should for the love of God (pun intended), not always assume that people who does not trust the evolutionairy theory, are out to promote some sort of religion over it. Many people do that, but not everyone, and I wish some people who seems to have evolution as their ultimate fetish, would sometimes allow people to not trust the evolutionairy theory completely.
Logged
26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Alma

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2007, 06:03:09 pm »
Do you think "God" is laughing at us now?  :D
Logged

Loke

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2007, 06:30:54 pm »
I dont know if laughs or if he cries. Beacuse in the bibel it stands that we humans will discuss this question untill we get nuts. beacuse we will never get the answer. we will get the answer when we die! And if you dont belive and God exist unlucky for you. But for us who belive, Grats we will really live happy for ever!! :D
Logged

Zapp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2007, 07:45:54 pm »
I think I wouldn't have to list all the cons of religion as it's pretty obvious to everyone. Could ANYONE explain to me, what are the good sides of religion? Imo it only stands in the way of science (which actually proves stuff it claims as truth, unlike the bible). As science develops, religion will probably fade away. Once science finds out, how the universe was created, religious people will have no corner stone to lean on, their great ruler did NOT create universe after all (similar thing happened to evolution, it's a proven scientific fact nowadays but most religious people still refuse to believe it)
Anyway, answer my question - what is good about religion? Discussion will follow after I get a decent answer.

Religion fills the void in the human understanding of the world. The beliefs which people hold helps them grasp their existence and bring meaning to their actions. Perception and the scientific method do not bring answers to all questions, and religion fills that gap. Essentially, belief is a cure to the abstract notion of a meaningless existence.
Logged

Ruki

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #78 on: September 06, 2007, 09:36:07 pm »
Religion fills the void in the human understanding of the world. The beliefs which people hold helps them grasp their existence and bring meaning to their actions. Perception and the scientific method do not bring answers to all questions, and religion fills that gap. Essentially, belief is a cure to the abstract notion of a meaningless existence.
Since when is belief a synonym for imagination?
Logged

Zapp

Re: Religion - why?
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2007, 07:01:53 am »
Since when is belief a synonym for imagination?

It's not synonymous. Belief requires conviction of truth while imagination doesn't.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All]   Go Up
 

anything