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Author Topic: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy  (Read 13459 times)

[leke]GrassNinja

Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« on: September 02, 2010, 05:44:25 pm »
Hello peeps^^

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#

Hostile has posted this movie a while ago in the Thread for anything, but IMO, way too few people took notice of it.

The movie analyses our economic system and our society, based on money, so they call it the monetary system. Explaining what problems result from that outdated system.

While in the latter part of the movie, it starts to get really interesting, as they present the Venus Project, a concept of a totally new economic system and society.
The concept of a resource based economy:

"The term and meaning of a Resource-Based Economy was originated by Jacque Fresco. It is a system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter or any other system of debt or servitude. All resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few. The premise upon which this system is based is that the Earth is abundant with plentiful resource; our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival.

Modern society has access to highly advanced technology and can make available food, clothing, housing and medical care; update our educational system; and develop a limitless supply of renewable, non-contaminating energy. By supplying an efficiently designed economy, everyone can enjoy a very high standard of living with all of the amenities of a high technological society."

-Taken from www.thevenusproject.com


So this would be a much better alternative to the crappy capitalistic system we got nowadays.

I strongly suggest you to watch the movie, it really is worth the time!


PS: If you don't understand it well in English, you may search Google Videos for a synchronisation or subtitles in your language, eventually there'll be one. If not, it helps alot to watch a version with English subtitles.
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RussG

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 06:22:14 pm »
Yeah, makes you think.

Not too many weeks ago I met this dude at a bar. He was in his 40's and had sacrifised all his life driving some shit truck from countryside to countryside, from city to city, from country to country. It's some family business and they do all types of countryside jobs. Just same boring shit year in, year out. He wasn't happy.

I had just seen this document and I tried to have a constructive conversation with him about "what if money didn't exist?". He just couldn't understand or internalize what I was talking about. Clearly he had never even thought about such things. Pretty soon I understood that it's no use trying to talk to him about this, as he turned out to be a douche as he twisted my words and thought I was suggesting that he didn't have money. So he tried to start a fight telling me he'll beat the crap outta me like he did to his ex-wife.

I realized how brainwashed and unhappy a man can be.

Also I've been completely broke the whole last month, and I've seriously thought if I should learn how to get food from outdoors. As in, I wouldn't use any money whatsoever on food. How cool would it be to hunt rabbits and bears with a self-made bow lol.
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Hostile

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2010, 06:29:48 pm »
Yea, I hear you, RussG. I too have been thinking about this pretty much since I saw the movie. Really interesting subject to think - and talk about. Sadly, most of people it's pretty useless to try to talk about those things, since (like RussG said) they don't seem to understand it really, and takes it the wrong way.

I sure don't wanna spend my whole life trying to collect money, that I really don't need that much. When Im old, I don't wanna think back my life, and see, that all I did was working just so I can live to be idle and wait for time to kill me.

E: I also found the talk about all that energy stuff really interesting. Just before I watched that movie, I saw Thor saying something about that we yet can't get enough energy out of sun, air or water. I might remember wrong tho.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 06:35:46 pm by Hostile »
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Tafka

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2010, 06:46:00 pm »
I watched some part of that movie, had to go. But I remember one Estonian ex-politician and good business man talking about that subject to small bunch of people (40?) in some place small time ago. I was there listening, and there was some other video too, which was shorter, like 10 minutes, but pretty entertaining and same thing made shorter. Financial crisis and all that money making scheme. It was interesting and same here, I'd like to talk about it sometimes. Nobody to talk to, as-well.

Ruki

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2010, 07:30:10 pm »
Take the economy and politics away and we are cavemen.
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[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2010, 07:51:23 pm »
Take the economy and politics away and we are cavemen.

Take the economy and politics away and we're free.
There's no need for this system anymore, as it is somekind of very clever slavery.
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Wander

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2010, 07:54:44 pm »
Did anyone else notice that the 2nd most related video to this subject on the whole of Google Video's is this one? :P
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#docid=8815587647189809806

Anyway I stopped watching the movie about 8 seconds after it started, because I noticed how long it was. I might come back to it later, when I have more time though. It's an interesting subject from the point of view that our current economic system doesn't work. And indeed, it has it's flaws. However, I don't think a system without any 'value rating', AKA money, would work at all in a modern society.

Our current system knows two different ways to make a living (money). One is to supply resources, the other is to supply services. Without money, it would be very difficult to appreciate different services differently. One service is harder to supply than the other and will take more of your time. However, it may still be quite essential for modern society. How is this new system going to make sure that all those services will keep existing?
This is just a very basic question I have, and since the movie is 2 hours long, I'm sure they'll have an answer to it. However, will it stretch far enough? Will it meet demands better than the actual system we have now? Think about a multitude of different things, e.g. government, game industry, transport, barbershop, city cleaning, etc. etc.

As I said, I might watch the movie later and come back for a more informed reply.
For now I couldn't resist replying at all though, because of this: :D
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#docid=8815587647189809806

Tafka

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2010, 07:58:00 pm »
Take the economy and politics away and we are cavemen.

Take the economy and politics away and we're free.
There's no need for this system anymore, as it is somekind of very clever slavery.
I agree. In such world order (democracy) there is too hard to make any reforms quickly, and that sucks. In one way democracy is really bad. Everything is tried to be made so equal. There should be a huge load of reforms made, but there wont be because everyone thinks different, and there might be conflicts etc. when made.

pelya

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2010, 08:03:57 pm »
Mmm, communism again? No thanks.

Without the money (or some other considerably sensible mechanism of motivation) noone will work at all, just like it was in USSR (well we did work when there was war or Stalin repressions, that's just another kind of motivation). Noone will produce anything if they'll know it will just be taken from them, and their personal level of living won't immediately raise.

When the money is backed up by some resources (gold, diamonds, ocean shells for some tribes) the government just cannot produce more money when they're out of resources. In modern world we have other kind of resources (USB flash sticks? Or ipods? Seems to me a good replacement for a paper money).

Anyway the whole system was working okay until the government gets too greedy, and starts another war or discovers another epidemic to get some reason to produce more money (we'll get cat or rabbit grippe next year according to Chinese calendar :P ).
In EU it doesn't work that easy because there is no centralized authority and the laws are applied somehow, so no single person or party got all the power at once. So they tend to be less corrupted after all.
In other countries (Nigeria, USA to some extent) there is single ruler/king/small government party/whatever that produce as much money as they want. Plus big part of the world depends on US dollar, so US can produce lot of money and dump them to China to get back resources (in the form of counterfeit Adidias shoes, but whatever - it's better than a paper). So when they overdid that the dollar got dumped, and we've got a financial crisis.

However globalization they're talking about is a good thing, especially if it remove all our governments, and replace them with a computer maybe? Well it's not very complicated if you take into account that the only useful thing government really does is taking the money from the treasury and distributing it onto the different social needs. Can be done in a single Excel sheet hehe. Another thing that government does is writing the laws and applying them, that can be replaced by some kind of computerized democracy, like "Send SMS to number XXX if you like that law" 8) . As for applying the laws, well dunno, you still need a police and judges, so that part will stay corrupted  ::) .

However, I don't think a system without any 'value rating', AKA money, would work at all in a modern society.
The same thing I wrote about, but you've replied faster.

I agree. In such world order (democracy) there is too hard to make any reforms quickly, and that sucks.
Count more votes for people with higher IQ? Or to people that actually work and produce something? There should be some discrimination in the society, we cannot live without it (or rather we can' but it will get very boring).

[SPOILER]Now, waiting for Sak's smart and grammatically perfect reply
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[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2010, 08:27:58 pm »
Well, pelya, did you actually watch the movie?
As I mentioned, it's definitely worth the time, and it practically answers all questions (and if not, you may search for further information on their website)

It's hard to discuss with you if you haven't seen the movie yet, because it takes some effort to get away from the thinking we got today. Like money is the only motivation to work. Yes, in the current system it is, as it is the main motivation to everything and everyone.

But imagine a system that works without money, but still provides the satisfaction of all your needs. You get all the goods for free.

Don't you think that in such a society, there would be very different values and motivations?

The way you think and feel, what values you've got, it all depends on your environment that you've grown up in. Also, education would be pretty different from what it is now, because now, most things you have to learn are for the purpose of understanding the monetary system and how to function in it.
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Sakmongkol

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 08:43:22 pm »
Now, waiting for Sak's smart and grammatically perfect reply
You'll have to wait a little longer as I must admit I still haven't watched the movie so I am hesitant to write a longer post on the subject yet. =)

But from what I have read here, especially the part Grassie quoted from the website, it does indeed sound somewhat like communism. Communism in theory is good, but as we know from history, it is very difficult if not impossible to make such a system work in practice. At least it would require a huge effort from all the developed countries, and I think some form of centralized control system would still be needed to prevent different kinds of people from abusing the system. Lazy people but also greedy people. I can't imagine how it could really work, but maybe some wiser person can, and probably has. I'm looking forward to finding some answers in the movie, which I will hopefully watch this weekend. (Yeye I remember I said the same thing last week... =()
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"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!"

~ Miles Davis

[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 09:00:20 pm »
But from what I have read here, especially the part Grassie quoted from the website, it does indeed sound somewhat like communism. Communism in theory is good, but as we know from history, it is very difficult if not impossible to make such a system work in practice.

Yes, it does indeed seem to be very similar to the principles of communism to me, too.

And yes, it is very close to impossible to make such a system work in the circumstances we've had and still have. But if you analyse it, the reasons why it wouldn't work are a cause of the monetary system.

[...]to prevent different kinds of people from abusing the system. Lazy people but also greedy people. [...]

There would be nothing to abuse, and no reason for greed, as there would be everything available to everyone for free.

It doesn't matter if there are lazy people, as there would only be needed 5% of the worlds population to maintain the whole system. And with the values that would be uphold in such a society, there would be definitely enough people willing to do the job.
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Thor

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 09:18:57 pm »
Take the economy and politics away and we are cavemen.

This.

To do the right decisions in the future, you need to understand history

-------

Communism, socialism, the solution? Eh?

Giving a huge effort for the developing countries should be done, but seriously, there should be an another solution than ridiculous ideologies like communism. We have already seen in the Europe, what would happen. Also, I would like to remind, that even all the money and economic things would be cleared out the humans stay with their nations. And when the ascendant ideology would be as ridiculous communism, or socialism in the same time nationalism will grow and grow. And what happens when we associate a socialist and a nationalist? The new Hitler. Oh, and now the developing countries aren't alone in the derangement, the Europe will be again in it like it was in 1939-1945.

The nowaday society is just fine, we have zero arguments (I'll try to find someday time to watch that movie, though I'm pretty busy nowadays and the movie is probably just a propaganda by uneducated and hippy people) to change, for example to a society without money and economy. A fact is, that everything would just fall with a such system. Why? Because for example science wouldn't work without money and economics. And where do we need science? For example the medical science. Yeah where do we need that.. Nowadays there are many welfare states, and if and when the developing continues there will be more and more. Of course it needs furtherance from the biggest economic countries - and that's why international association should pressure them to do some changes.

However, may the hippies live in the utopian and unrealistic world, I, capitalists, and other wise humans was their ideology whatever live fine with this good nowaday economic system.
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[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2010, 09:29:33 pm »
Take the economy and politics away and we are cavemen.

This.

To do the right decisions in the future, you need to understand history

-------

Communism, socialism, the solution? Eh?

Giving a huge effort for the developing countries should be done, but seriously, there should be an another solution than ridiculous ideologies like communism. We have already seen in the Europe, what would happen. Also, I would like to remind, that even all the money and economic things would be cleared out the humans stay with their nations. And when the ascendant ideology would be as ridiculous communism, or socialism in the same time nationalism will grow and grow. And what happens when we associate a socialist and a nationalist? The new Hitler. Oh, and now the developing countries aren't alone in the derangement, the Europe will be again in it like it was in 1939-1945.

The nowaday society is just fine, we have zero arguments (I'll try to find someday time to watch that movie, though I'm pretty busy nowadays and the movie is probably just a propaganda by uneducated and hippy people) to change, for example to a society without money and economy. A fact is, that everything would just fall with a such system. Why? Because for example science wouldn't work without money and economics. And where do we need science? For example the medical science. Yeah where do we need that.. Nowadays there are many welfare states, and if and when the developing continues there will be more and more. Of course it needs furtherance from the biggest economic countries - and that's why international association should pressure them to do some changes.

However, may the hippies live in the utopian and unrealistic world, I, capitalists, and other wise humans was their ideology whatever live fine with this good nowaday economic system.

Hahaha. Seriously, it made me laugh at some parts^^

But on a serious note, it took you half an hour to post... this?!

I won't go into your post any more, as it is just ridicoulus.
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Sakmongkol

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 10:13:56 pm »
The new Hitler.
Hitler card, you lose the game.

But seriously, if you want to go into the Hitler-subject a little more, his ideology is called national socialism, but was he really a nationalist? He definitely wasn't a socialist as you should know. But that's what he wanted people to think and he succeeded quite well in that. In reality his ideology was closer to some form of mysticist/occultist social Darwinism. It had very little to do with nationalism in the modern sense as Hitler's ideas of 'race' and 'nation' were not based in any kind of actual science or existing nations, it was all just mythology. Today nationalism shouldn't really be a big problem, and I don't think it can be anymore with all the globalization and multiculturalism. Real, dangerous nationalists are a fading minority in the modern world.

Then you draw the conlusion 'communism has never worked before -> communism will never work' which is ridiculous. Knowing history and learning from mistakes is healthy, but making such conclusions is absurd. First of all you should know that real communism as theorized by Marx has never been practiced as an official ideology of any government. Leninism and Stalinism and Maoism are completely different ideologies. Then you should learn some basic logical thinking.

The rest of your post is just good entertainment and doesn't really deserve any counterarguments. Have fun in the capitalist utopia.
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"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!"

~ Miles Davis

Ruki

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2010, 10:42:49 pm »
Take the economy and politics away and we are cavemen.

Take the economy and politics away and we're free.
There's no need for this system anymore, as it is somekind of very clever slavery.
If by being free you are refering to chaos and colapse of order, then sure. Idealistic systems with "you give me, I give you in return" or "lets all help there today, and they will help at my place tomorrow" will never work because of the human nature. Not everyone is equal in intelectual and capability terms, so why would somebody have less if he is able to get more. Have you read Animal Farm? You should know what happens once the "current order" is removed and there are efforts to create a new order. Besides, without system, how about laws, crime and punishment and all? It can't be that everyone is everyone's judge. Sure the criminal might not be needed when you have everything you need, but there are still crimes out of other reasons, like jealousy for example. And how about the social outcasts - pedophiles, rapers, psychos, socyiopaths etc.? If you are to establish some comittee to vote about it, you have just put certain people to certain positions. Which will eventually turn into a modern system.

Of course an order where you would trade each other with vegetables, help with what you do the best and so on would be really awesome. But it will never work. It never did. Spending time debating about it is pretty pointless as I have debated about it several times already, always ending into never ending debate. Somebody will insist it can work, somebody will insist it won't work. I'm not a hippy so I believe it won't work... They have created a light bulb with unlimited working time period. Companies which produce "normal" light bulbs bought the patent. This is how the world works. Wolves and sheeps. Without it we are all just a bunch of sheeps.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 10:57:27 pm by Ruki »
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DarkCharlie

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2010, 11:12:35 pm »
I must admit these people are very (very!) good speakers.

They present everything in simple and logical steps to get to the right results.

The problem is that even though these steps look logical, they often are not. They (ab)use the word debt and the effect it has on most people.

The money was created in order to keep information about a debt. Consider that an economy consist of only two people. I sell 5 eggs to you for $5. You get 5 eggs from me (the actual value) and you give me back $5. The $5 actually means that you owe me a value of 5 eggs. If there were more people in the economy, I could get for example rolls from them, give them the $ I got from you and thus tell everybody you don't owe the $ to me anymore but to the person I traded with.

This concept works fine until I get a counter value in a short time. But if you repay me in a longer time (year, 10 years or even longer), I will want you to give me more - as a revenue for the waiting - an interest. You will have to work harder to pay me back.

If many people owe me this way, I could actually make living only out of the interest - becoming a bank. If I want to earn more money, I can offer a service to other people - they can give their $ to me (thus I will owe them), I will take their money and lend it to someone else with a higher interest. A problem might occur though if the people want to withdraw their $, as I actually don't have any (I lent everything). The solution is to keep a part of the money as a reserve (yes, THAT evil reserve mentioned in the movie) if anyone wanted their money back.

If you buy something by taking a loan, you actually consume your future money. If you consume and borrow so much that your income won't ever cover the borrowed money + interest, you bankrupt. No matter if you are a worker, a bank or a state.

For those who didn't read until here - yes, money = debt. But it's obvious and not really evil.

The perfect society relies on the fact that the machines can produce everything we need for a happy life. Moreover, they state that the current technology is capable of that. As a programmer, I can assure you it is not - for example no program can drive a car better than a human (even if the human is drunk :) ). They also seem rely on a common misconception - that machines don't make mistakes.

Even though the movie impresses us with the big numbers of energy flowing from the Sun, the current technology can catch just a tiny percent of what would actually be effective and enough.

Everything else I wanted to say, has already been said in previous posts. Communism is a nice idea and it might sound real from a mouth of a gifted speaker. But that doesn't make it real.

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Sakmongkol

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2010, 11:37:15 pm »
Besides, without system, how about laws, crime and punishment and all? It can't be that everyone is everyone's judge.
I thought the discussion was about the economic system. Disbanding the current economic system wouldn't necessarily destroy judicial systems and governments and such. The problem with the current 'system' (by which I mean the whole system) is that different parts of the system which should work independently are interfering with each other. Economy interferes with politics and judicial structures resulting in corruption, politics interferes with science resulting in politicization and so on. Ultimately the motivator of this kind of interference is usually money, which leads us to tracking the cause of the problem to the economic system. Obviously refining the economic system would inevitably affect all the other parts of the system too, but it wouldn't mean total destruction and chaos.

If you are to establish some comittee to vote about it, you have just put certain people to certain positions. Which will eventually turn into a modern system.
I'd like to think otherwise, because to my understanding the modern system is not based on agreements between all people, but only a select few. They have worked towards this system for decades if not centuries, and the aforementioned interference and corruption is used to reinforce the structure and keep the power and wealth to those certain people through inheritance. This kind of system resists change because to make decisions you need money, and money is not given to those who are not wanted in the decision-making. For a real change to happen the whole system would need a fresh start, and by getting rid of money an equal starting point could be provided for everyone. Most likely the resulting system would look nothing like the current one.
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"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!"

~ Miles Davis

٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2010, 04:16:47 am »
People are idiots and need to be controlled, otherwise we would've whined about the system sooner.
There was no riots, when they took away the possibility to change money into gold.
Right now, we can't get a better system without a little help from nature, so there's no point whining or even speculating about that.
Now the question of happiness is other thing. Not everyone even seek happiness. And you can be happy with or without money. But you can trust me that the change of system wont come any time soon, because there are so many frauds(with power) that depend on the system.
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[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2010, 04:43:16 pm »
If you consume and borrow so much that your income won't ever cover the borrowed money + interest, you bankrupt. No matter if you are a worker, a bank or a state.

This is true for natural people, but not for a state of a bank.
These two won't go bankrupt unless enough people would want their money back at the same time. But otherwise, they can still go on, as long as noone distrusts them, so they'll get new money.

For example: The American National debt amounts to over $13 trillion, increasing at an average of over $4 billion per day. While their GDP in 2009 was $14.256 billion.

The perfect society relies on the fact that the machines can produce everything we need for a happy life. Moreover, they state that the current technology is capable of that. As a programmer, I can assure you it is not - for example no program can drive a car better than a human (even if the human is drunk :) ). They also seem rely on a common misconception - that machines don't make mistakes.

Even though the movie impresses us with the big numbers of energy flowing from the Sun, the current technology can catch just a tiny percent of what would actually be effective and enough.

I do know that a lot of the technology they mention isn't as effective, or doesn't even exist, yet. But we're not talking about the current state of technology, but the potential it has. And considering the technological progress we've made in the past, this potential is very high.
And the technolgical process will continue even faster if we get rid of that monetary system, as there will never be the question again: "Do we have enough money?"
Instead the question would be: "Do we have the resources?" And there are plenty of resources.
And you have to know that the effort on the research of these technologies isn't too big either, because their not profitable.


@ Ruki: As you've stated yourself, there won't be a lot of crimes anymore without the existance of money. And yes, there are still some crimes that might occur. For example a person killing another. Nowadays we just arrest criminals, without considering what lead them to do what they did.
It would be far more effective to analyse the causes of crimes, and then search for a solution to these causes(and of course send the criminal to therapy). For this would prevent any further crimes commited for that cause.

I'm sure you know what sick grievances we have in this system, and if you can accept that, and just live your happy life.. well, that's good for you.

But I for my part, I don't want to accept that! In my opinion, almost any alternative would be better than what we've got now! Of course these alternatives aren't perfect either, but we just have to replace this totally crappy system with a less crappy one.

I do know that it won't be possible to just replace it outta nothing. But I hope that people will be open for something new as soon as the current system collapses. And it will collapse.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 04:55:03 pm by [leke]GrassNinja »
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Thor

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2011, 04:32:56 pm »
Quote
We live in difficult times: it is banking crises, state indebtedness, economic volatility. Take these are now out! Complex issues to familiarize themselves with easier it is to get excited about a conspiracy and magiatheories. One of the most popular, is now called Zeitgeist. In the coming days it may be full of cinemas all over Finland.


A new Zeitgeist: Moving Forward is a continuation in 2007, graduated Zeitgeist, the Internet and disseminated in a documentary called 'movie, which became a phenomenon. (The link behind the New York Times story last spring.)

The original film offered an explanation of the time a huge world, where all kinds of religious theories, self-invented stories and outright delusions are the current world economic and administrative structures causes. Or something like that. Correlations depend on how much the viewer has been smoking cannabis.

Movie can be viewed in most Web video services, and then be able to read even from here, how the non-stop nonsense it is. In the September 11 days is called a myth, the United States to address the tax unconstitutional, ancient religions, the similarities between pulling up the names of English-speaking, a slight chance of similar spelling of Jesus and the estimated the god of sun. Hitler card in a big swing arc. Thus justifying the urgency of the transition to cashless society. Inaccuracies are such documentarists gold, as well as the realization that leaving the stories and theories of other important details out of them all can be easily adapted to your vision, no matter how crazy.

The end result is closer to psychosis than stupidity: they are all against us, but we can achieve overnight, our utopia. (Although the goals are lofty, the world's most famous fan of Zeitgeist is probably now a mass murderer Jared Loughner a friend that shaped the world view based on it. This knowledge I still would go further to make to try scare other people. Sadly, however.)

Zeitgeist believers are so industrious, that kind of Moving Forward is organized demonstrations in several cities in Finland. In a normal commercially available it can not therefore be seen, but random presentations. Movie theaters can be rented if the money is. May be a foretaste of the trailer.

Have you noticed that there is unemployment? And that pharmaceutical companies are working to make a profit? "Finance will not disclose, before it has killed the last man." Such insights into the Zeitgeist seems again to offer. The answer is some sort of socialist revolution, or at least the nonconformity. I would certainly have been thrilled by the age of 13, but secretly, a bit like some supernatural stories, which are not really about the child's daylight dared to believe. You know, ghosts and curses do not exist, although even those have been made documentary films. Or "documentary films".

This is a quote from an appreciated finnish magazine, Suomen kuvalehti. Link.

I couldn't agree any more. Also, the writer of the article has obviously explored the facts of the issue and manages to use those in a very good way which may irritate the Zeitgest hippies. So, it is funny to see here in Finland what kind of agatiation these Zeitgest hippies begin here in Finland because of that article which is full of facts.

Word is free.
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Sakmongkol

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2011, 09:44:31 pm »
Suomen Kuvalehti is a ridiculous publication.
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"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!"

~ Miles Davis

[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2011, 09:10:00 pm »
Well, Thor, have you actually seen the movie and biult your own opinion?
Or are you again just blindly adopting the opinion of someone else?

I would love to get this discussion going again, but not as long as come up with these ridiculous posts where you hardly think on your own. Instead you just post this quote which is not even worth discussing.

Come up with a reasoned opinion or leave it.

Btw, has anyone actually seen the movie by now?^^
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Hatten

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2011, 01:05:14 am »
Wow, this thing is old. go out on the 'net and you can see hundreds, if not thousands, of people argumenting about how the economy sucks, how everything should be remade with drums, trumpets, and not a single person dying.

What we need (___IMO___) is 1. Higher average IQ, 2. Less corruption.

oh, and if you're so keen on the idea of not paying for stuff, go download linux ;)
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I don't do unintentionall mistakes.

Sebbe

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2011, 08:52:06 am »
I've seen the first Zeitgeist video and I thought it was really well-planned. However, now I don't know if it's actually valid.

Could someone (Sak, Thor or Grassninja) tell me, without a wall of text, if Zeitgeist is worth the attention or not.
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[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 06:14:41 pm »
I've seen the first Zeitgeist video and I thought it was really well-planned. However, now I don't know if it's actually valid.

Could someone (Sak, Thor or Grassninja) tell me, without a wall of text, if Zeitgeist is worth the attention or not.

I'd definitely say yes. Thor would definitely say no. I'd suppose you to just start watching it and you'll see if you get interested or not.

In the beginning they basically explain how our monetary system works, which I think is very interesting, as money is like one huge part of our lifes. That already makes it worth watching IMO.
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Thor

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2011, 06:30:27 pm »
I'd definitely say yes. Thor would definitely say no. I'd suppose you to just start watching it and you'll see if you get interested or not.

In the beginning they basically explain how our monetary system works, which I think is very interesting, as money is like one huge part of our lifes. That already makes it worth watching IMO.

Of course it's worth of watching. It shows very well, what kind of people don't understand WHY the economy system nowadays is what it is. I know and understand that some people want change, because capitalism is not perfect solution, but in the same time they come up with a more ridiculous system which would lead to a catastrophe.

A human is a selfish bastard and aslong humans live on Earth the world someones will suffer, was there what kind of system whatever. Only thing we can influence is to keep our welfare, and help those who doesn't have it. Too bad criminals have a very strict hand of poor countries.

But a fact is, capitalism works, unlike for example socialism or communism which is near what those Zeitgeist guys offer.
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Gaston

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2011, 07:36:18 pm »
Communism wont work at present. Communism (in it's pure form) stifles competition, which is a basic human instinct. The economy we're seeing today throughout the world, is a combination of amongst others, human instinct, cartel based processes and globalism. It's not really something that's decided (sans in situations where something such as a revolution has taken place), but it's more something that evolves depending on production capacity, worldwide credit, and humans.

Is this painting a bleak future for humankind? Not really. This kind of economy, which has been integral worldwide throughout the last 100 years, has come in conjunction with amazing improvements in standard of living for the western world (the "eastern world" is soon to follow.) Though not everyone reaps the benefits; there are upsides and downsides to it.

Can we do anything? Perhaps we can. But we'd be best adviced to go with the evolution strategy rather than the revolution strategy. Why?  Because it has proven to work through time, and has cost less human lives in the name of change. The best thing we can do, is to educate ourself on the subject and take it from there. See, there isn't one uniform "capitalism". It is dynamic, and is expressed differently throughout the world. And the differences between a capitalism that promotes long-term advantages versus one that attempts to fix things in the short term, are somewhat diffuse at best. And with that little sermon, I leave you to be further indoctrinated by the following video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk</a>
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26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Sakmongkol

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2011, 08:16:59 pm »
But a fact is, capitalism works, unlike for example socialism or communism which is near what those Zeitgeist guys offer.

Communism could work, but we can't know for sure until someone tries it out properly. For instance, the USSR was never even near real socialism, it was state capitalist. Cuba is a little closer to socialism but still a long way from communism.

Capitalism, on the other hand, has been practiced for quite long and we are now beginning to see how it falls apart. I think it would be time to try something new, although I'm not entirely sure what it might be.

Personally I'm not really satisfied with the 'fact' that greed and competition are essential parts of the human nature. And even if they were, justifying capitalism with them would be a naturalistic fallacy.
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"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!"

~ Miles Davis

[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2011, 07:30:28 pm »
It's not really something that's decided (sans in situations where something such as a revolution has taken place), but it's more something that evolves depending on production capacity, worldwide credit, and humans.

It actually is decided and even though it evolved, it doesn't mean it's natural. It's an outdated system that evolved from a scarcity of resources and technology, which uses competition as an incentive to be productive and secure a steady growth. It's gone out of hand though, as the necessity to grow and make profit by all means leads to massive corruption and exploitation, and thus the decay of our planet.

The abundance of resources and the steady technological progress eliminate the need of incentive and steady growth. More and more laborers are replaced by machines, and the steady growth of the economy is reaching the limit of this planets capacity. We should produce based on what we have and what we need, rather than force growth regardless of the carrying capacity of our world.


Is this painting a bleak future for humankind? Not really. This kind of economy, which has been integral worldwide throughout the last 100 years, has come in conjunction with amazing improvements in standard of living for the western world (the "eastern world" is soon to follow.) Though not everyone reaps the benefits; there are upsides and downsides to it.

So that's acceptable? Over 50% of our worlds population live in absolute poverty!
It's not like we just overtook the nations which are less developed, but aren't able to help them. There are enough resources and the production capacity is high enough to provide an acceptable standard of living for every human being. The current system won't allow such an equilibrium, the constant competition will always lead to the expliotation of the weak.

Capitalism doesn't work. Or would you call a system that only reaches the well-being of less than half of the people a success? I have truly analysed the principle of our monetary system myself and I can assure you, it's just a matter of time until it will collapse. Money can only be created out of debt and debt always creates interest that has to be paid back as well. So, the money to cover the interest that is charged really doesn't exist. The debts constantly grow because of the interest that can never be repaid, but this can't continue forever, the debts will grow to a point where the collapse is unevitable. There is no way to avoid this, as money cannot be created without creating debt.

So how can we accept a system, in which over half of the people live in misery and human labor and resources are exploited ruthlessly? Capitalism is doomed to fail, so we should really start thinking about alternatives.
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Gaston

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2011, 09:52:18 pm »
It actually is decided and even though it evolved, it doesn't mean it's natural. It's an outdated system that evolved from a scarcity of resources and technology, which uses competition as an incentive to be productive and secure a steady growth. It's gone out of hand though, as the necessity to grow and make profit by all means leads to massive corruption and exploitation, and thus the decay of our planet.
I disagree with the "decided" part. It's something that has come into shape gradually as the world went along. Trade, banking and "supply and demand" are all integral parts of capitalism, and has steadily grown together in different manners to form different forms of capitalism. There never was a "now we're gonna be capitalists" moment. It's just something that grew out of the circumstances and combined the elements as well as human instincts for competition and really just ended up fitting the landscape of economics in most places.

You are correct that it's gone out of hand though. The last 50 years have seen a globalization that is unfathomable in human history, and the biggest problem is that governments attempts to stop the evolution of capitalism. I'm by no means arguing against socialism as a whole, but there are elements within some socialistic principles which are working directly against the principles of capitalism in a manner that doesn't make the system better, but rather stiffles it's natural evolution, while keeping it up. And a capitalism which isn't allowed to grow it's course, is one that hurts much more in the long term than anything we've experienced so far. Government bailouts is one of the biggest sinners in that area, keeping enterprices which do not have the right to life on artificial life support. This is an unfortunate measure which arises from the globalization that is occouring coupled with nations attempt to keep sovereignity at the same time.


The abundance of resources and the steady technological progress eliminate the need of incentive and steady growth. More and more laborers are replaced by machines, and the steady growth of the economy is reaching the limit of this planets capacity. We should produce based on what we have and what we need, rather than force growth regardless of the carrying capacity of our world.
Yes I agree. And that is the direction capitalism needs to be headed in. Unfortunatly governments around the world are not interested in doing this, as it stiffles their need to compete in the global market. Again, sovereignity in a global world works directly against natural evolution of capitalism and the economic system.

So that's acceptable? Over 50% of our worlds population live in absolute poverty!
It's not like we just overtook the nations which are less developed, but aren't able to help them. There are enough resources and the production capacity is high enough to provide an acceptable standard of living for every human being. The current system won't allow such an equilibrium, the constant competition will always lead to the expliotation of the weak.
I'm by no means saying that pure capitalism will the saviour to all human beings, because it wont be, but what are mainly working against the people in poverty are the governments themself. Import & export regulations and taxes, giving a man a "fish" instead of learning him to "fish" (foreign develpoment help) and such all contribute to keeping the differences up between the countries. Anyhow, my point was that even though it's easy to view the situation as a horrible one, the fact remains that the living standard is continiually growing , as well as the average age, and healt care, and education and so on throughout the world. Of course there are ways to make things go even smoother, but those pills are very bitter to swallow for any nation wanting to stay competetive in the international market (where most economies are artificially high, which again leads to overproduction and overconsumption.)


Capitalism doesn't work. Or would you call a system that only reaches the well-being of less than half of the people a success? I have truly analysed the principle of our monetary system myself and I can assure you, it's just a matter of time until it will collapse. Money can only be created out of debt and debt always creates interest that has to be paid back as well. So, the money to cover the interest that is charged really doesn't exist. The debts constantly grow because of the interest that can never be repaid, but this can't continue forever, the debts will grow to a point where the collapse is unevitable. There is no way to avoid this, as money cannot be created without creating debt.
Capitalism "works" on the ground that it is a tried and tested system.  I never claimed for it to be the saviour of mankind, but it is a system that works. I am unaware of any economies which are not at least in a big part capitalistic that has a big success in terms of well being of people though.

Money being created out of debt is not capitalism in the way it should be (at least not how it goes on now.) Governments are continually manipulating the capitalistic outside well-being, creating a bubble beyond proportions of anything we've ever seen. Sort of like drinking the day after you been drunk trying to fix your headache except they've been doing it for day after day for decades. The meltdown comes (And will come) from the nature of capitalism. This is not the fault of capitalism though. It is rather the fault of those attempting to run a country by capitalistic principles while attempting to patch up all the short-term bad sides (especially if it wins you another election.) They're trying to have the cake and eat it. Don't blame the cake though.

So how can we accept a system, in which over half of the people live in misery and human labor and resources are exploited ruthlessly? Capitalism is doomed to fail, so we should really start thinking about alternatives.
Capitalism isn't doomed to fail. Capitalism is pretty much a systematic expression of human nature. But capitalism which is being manipulated to behave better than it should considering the current state of affairs, is doomed to fail, simply because it isn't capitalism anymore, and thus doesn't follow human nature, which will in turn and time find a way to pop the bubble however long it may take.

Accepting capitalism is like accepting climate. Some days it's sunny, some days it's rainy, and some days there are tornadoes taking lives. Instead of trying to change the system to what we'd ideologicaly like it to be, we should instead consider adapting ourself to the nature of the system (e.g. build better houses in case there comes a tornados)
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26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Sakmongkol

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2011, 10:36:52 pm »
The abundance of resources and the steady technological progress eliminate the need of incentive and steady growth. More and more laborers are replaced by machines, and the steady growth of the economy is reaching the limit of this planets capacity. We should produce based on what we have and what we need, rather than force growth regardless of the carrying capacity of our world.
Yes I agree. And that is the direction capitalism needs to be headed in. Unfortunatly governments around the world are not interested in doing this, as it stiffles their need to compete in the global market. Again, sovereignity in a global world works directly against natural evolution of capitalism and the economic system.

I don't understand this, because as we know capitalism is based on competition. If we only produced what we need, there would be no competition and thus no capitalism. But because of greed and competition, demand has to be created artificially to force so-called growth which is unnatural and will eventually lead to a horrible disaster, regardless of how capitalism is regulated or not regulated at all. Capitalism is built on the idea that continuous growth is possible, which is simply not true. There are limits for everything.

So how can we accept a system, in which over half of the people live in misery and human labor and resources are exploited ruthlessly? Capitalism is doomed to fail, so we should really start thinking about alternatives.
Capitalism isn't doomed to fail. Capitalism is pretty much a systematic expression of human nature. But capitalism which is being manipulated to behave better than it should considering the current state of affairs, is doomed to fail, simply because it isn't capitalism anymore, and thus doesn't follow human nature, which will in turn and time find a way to pop the bubble however long it may take.

Accepting capitalism is like accepting climate. Some days it's sunny, some days it's rainy, and some days there are tornadoes taking lives. Instead of trying to change the system to what we'd ideologicaly like it to be, we should instead consider adapting ourself to the nature of the system (e.g. build better houses in case there comes a tornados)

Here we run into a naturalistic fallacy again, but this seems even stranger to me. First you say that capitalism is natural, but then you say that we should 'adapt' ourselves to capitalism? I'd say if any adapting needs to be done, the system is not natural to begin with. Short-term solutions are bad, that is true, but long-term 'solutions' are equally bad if the system is principally unnatural, as capitalism is in my opinion.
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"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!"

~ Miles Davis

[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2011, 11:40:00 pm »
I don't understand this, because as we know capitalism is based on competition. If we only produced what we need, there would be no competition and thus no capitalism. But because of greed and competition, demand has to be created artificially to force so-called growth which is unnatural and will eventually lead to a horrible disaster, regardless of how capitalism is regulated or not regulated at all. Capitalism is built on the idea that continuous growth is possible, which is simply not true. There are limits for everything.

Thank you.

Gaston, seriously, capitalism is not natural. It is a system that evolved though time, as you already stated, but that doesn't mean it's natural. The need for nutrition is natural. Sexual desire is natural. Capitlism however, is not.

Capitalism is a structure that we're all forced into. It has always been led by the ones on the top, as they are the ones with the most power. They indirectly decide how this system evolves. I think everyone agrees that with enough money, you can do almost anything you want. And that's the point. This system doesn't evolve naturally, there are people behind it who pull the strings, people who make decisions. They all have the same amition, and that is maximize profit by all means.

Capitalism is outdated, I say it again. It's an old system that was may have been good in times were growth was needed. Nowadays, we are reaching the limits of growth, which causes numerous problems. We have developted to a point, where growth shouldn't be the main target anymore.

The technological progress opens countless options to create a new system from scratch, a global system that benefits everyone equally. Where production is based on real needs (not created to make profit) and on the carrying capacity of the earth.

And why do you want to stick to this system that spreads so much misery in the world and is doomed to fail, hoping that it will "naturally" evolve to a new, adequate capitalism. It's not that flexible, Gaston. It is at all times based on profit, and this is the main cause of a big number of environmental and social problems. Because the need to maximize profit will always lead to corruption, it's more effective than playing by the rules. That's why capitalism can't be regulated either. So it can't evolve to a new and adjusted version of itself.

Capitalism is no natural part of evolution, it is a system that has been created and developed by those on the top and can be exchanged with a new, adequate system. Of course the transition period is a big difficulty, but considering the global problems nowadays, it is a needed step.

Good night.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 11:46:20 pm by [leke]GrassNinja »
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Wander

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2011, 03:17:11 am »
Alright, while introducing myself to this topic, let's begin with admitting that I haven't read it all (even though I think I should). However, while reading the last few posts, I think this is a discussion of high quality, in which certain statements are, regrettably, less valid.


Grass, I'm afraid your definition of capitalism might be a bit off. The movie in the beginning of this thread mostly applies to the US, and maybe so does your definition of capitalism.
Regard that however you wish to. However, the following is something I'm quite sure about:
We should produce based on what we have and what we need, ...
'Capitalism' is not about creating money from debt. That's just the definition of money...

Also, I believe that the 'steady technological progress' that you mention is a direct consequence of the same capitalism you fight. Actually, you may not be aware of this, but 'technological progress', measured by the amount of patents filed per year and just about any other parameter you could think off has been declining for many years now. Personally, I think this is a consequence of the capitalism-avoiding (if I may put it that way) policy of many governments.

Capitalism doesn't work. Or would you call a system that only reaches the well-being of less than half of the people a success? I have truly analysed the principle of our monetary system myself and I can assure you, it's just a matter of time until it will collapse. Money can only be created out of debt and debt always creates interest that has to be paid back as well. So, the money to cover the interest that is charged really doesn't exist. The debts constantly grow because of the interest that can never be repaid, but this can't continue forever, the debts will grow to a point where the collapse is unevitable. There is no way to avoid this, as money cannot be created without creating debt.
The concept of 'money' (debt if you must, something that by itself has no value [you can't use it] but yet is accepted by everyone as valuable) has been around for quite a while now (over 26 centuries), and I would say that it has proven to work. What are you really trying to attack here, 'money', 'capitalism' or just the egoïstic human mindset?


I'm by no means arguing against socialism as a whole, but there are elements within some socialistic principles which are working directly against the principles of capitalism in a manner that doesn't make the system better, but rather stiffles it's natural evolution, while keeping it up.
Within the original context, this wasn't less ridiculous than it is without. Seriously, WTF?


If we only produced what we need, there would be no competition and thus no capitalism.
I don't understand this. We can't go back to every individual producing his own needs (obviously). If 'the society' produces what 'the society' needs, you will still need some sort of distributing system between individuals. I would say that competition and thus capitalism has thusfar proven itself better than other systems.

Capitalism is built on the idea that continuous growth is possible, ...
No it's not. It's based on this:
We should produce based on what we have and what we need, ...
Growth is not necessarily inherent to the capitalist system. Capitalism is merely based on a more individualistic point of view than, for example, communism.


Capitalism is a structure that we're all forced into. It has always been led by the ones on the top, as they are the ones with the most power. They indirectly decide how this system evolves.
Apart from the word 'indirectly', this doesn't resemble capitalism to me as much as it resembles other forms of economy...
This is actually one of very few occasions where I would like to bring into mind 'The American Dream' (as something positive).


These things I have pointed out are reasonings that I currently persieve as flaws in your logic. Regardless of them, I wish to applaud you three on the way you manage to have an intelligent discussion. I believe that this is what the Cavern was meant for. :)

Gaston

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2011, 03:24:23 pm »
I don't understand this, because as we know capitalism is based on competition. If we only produced what we need, there would be no competition and thus no capitalism. But because of greed and competition, demand has to be created artificially to force so-called growth which is unnatural and will eventually lead to a horrible disaster, regardless of how capitalism is regulated or not regulated at all. Capitalism is built on the idea that continuous growth is possible, which is simply not true. There are limits for everything.
Capitalism isn't built on the idea that continous growth is possible. That's government steered capitalism. One with bailouts and what have you not. (The economic system needs regulation though. But attempting to steer the economic climate to a certain direction such as with bailouts, is directly working against capitalism.) Capitalism is as you suggest, a competetive inclined system. Competition, while it can lead to situations where artificial demand is created at times, is self-correcting in the long term. If the demand is artificially created (e.g. not a real demand), the ones attempting to propell the demand, will fail in the long term as the demand isn't there. That is unless they are allowed to exercise cartell based strategies and similair to that (which I admit is an inherent problem of both capitalism and human nature when considering principles such as "free market".)

Here we run into a naturalistic fallacy again, but this seems even stranger to me. First you say that capitalism is natural, but then you say that we should 'adapt' ourselves to capitalism? I'd say if any adapting needs to be done, the system is not natural to begin with. Short-term solutions are bad, that is true, but long-term 'solutions' are equally bad if the system is principally unnatural, as capitalism is in my opinion.
Sure it fits the definition of "natural fallacy", but I don't see it as a fallacy. Viewing a system comprised of humans and interhuman activity is something that I cannot fathom should be considered withouth considering human nature itself.

I didn't say capitalism is "natural". I said it was a systematic expression of human nature. And I said that instead of attempting to steer it in the direction we want (such as keeping a big company up to let people keep their jobs, even though the company is pretty much bankrupt.) We should adapt to the nature of the system. (e.g. companies which don't have the right to life should be put out of their misery, so the stronger more robust ones may prosper.)

As contradictory as it may seem, human nature seems to be to a very large extent to work against what's natural. In many cases, that proves to be somewhat benefitial for the species. But working against a system that is expressed through our own nature, is working indirectly against human nature. And the problem with that, is that people who work within the system (e.g. 90+% of the worlds population), will more or less work against that anyway.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 03:25:58 pm by Gaston »
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26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Gaston

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2011, 03:44:07 pm »
Gaston, seriously, capitalism is not natural. It is a system that evolved though time, as you already stated, but that doesn't mean it's natural. The need for nutrition is natural. Sexual desire is natural. Capitlism however, is not.
Capitalism is a systematic expression of human nature. I don't know if you can call that natural or not, but that's besides the point I'm making. My point is that capitalism and human nature is linked together.

Capitalism is a structure that we're all forced into. It has always been led by the ones on the top, as they are the ones with the most power. They indirectly decide how this system evolves. I think everyone agrees that with enough money, you can do almost anything you want. And that's the point. This system doesn't evolve naturally, there are people behind it who pull the strings, people who make decisions. They all have the same amition, and that is maximize profit by all means.
You mean just like there are humans who are better athletes than others? Just like some people are sexier than others, and gets more choices in who they want to mate with and so on? By all means, capitalism isn't a system that is going to make the world into a utopia for mankind. But it is a system that works, and fits pretty well in with human nature.

Capitalism is outdated, I say it again. It's an old system that was may have been good in times were growth was needed. Nowadays, we are reaching the limits of growth, which causes numerous problems. We have developted to a point, where growth shouldn't be the main target anymore.
Consistent growth isn't inherent to capitalism. It is inherent to government policies and a reaction to globalism seen in conjunction with nations need to stay sovereign.


The technological progress opens countless options to create a new system from scratch, a global system that benefits everyone equally. Where production is based on real needs (not created to make profit) and on the carrying capacity of the earth.
It does? How on earth would you replace capitalism with a new system? Sounds like a pretty ambitious effort to me... Either way, I can pretty much guarantee you, that as long as humans are in charge of a system, not everyone are gonne get equal benfits.

And why do you want to stick to this system that spreads so much misery in the world and is doomed to fail, hoping that it will "naturally" evolve to a new, adequate capitalism. It's not that flexible, Gaston. It is at all times based on profit, and this is the main cause of a big number of environmental and social problems. Because the need to maximize profit will always lead to corruption, it's more effective than playing by the rules. That's why capitalism can't be regulated either. So it can't evolve to a new and adjusted version of itself.
You're painting a very bleak picture of capitalism. With capitalism, the living standard of human beings have continioually gone upwards. I'm not saying that capitalism is the saviour of mankind, but it doesn't seem to be working against mankinds possibility to live well and prosper. Capitalism can be regulated. The most successful way of doing that, is for the government to provide alternatives. While giving regulations for private companies for what they can do and can't. Such as safety regulations, what companies can and can't do in the market they're in and so on.


Capitalism is no natural part of evolution, it is a system that has been created and developed by those on the top and can be exchanged with a new, adequate system. Of course the transition period is a big difficulty, but considering the global problems nowadays, it is a needed step.
Again, I don't see how you (or anyone else) are gonna be able to change such a system as capitalism. I see it as nothing short of a systematic expression of human nature.

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26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Gaston

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2011, 03:48:19 pm »
I'm by no means arguing against socialism as a whole, but there are elements within some socialistic principles which are working directly against the principles of capitalism in a manner that doesn't make the system better, but rather stiffles it's natural evolution, while keeping it up.
Within the original context, this wasn't less ridiculous than it is without. Seriously, WTF?

I think "while keeping it up" shouldn't be there. When I'm talking about socialistic principles working against capitalistic principles, I'm mainly talking about things such as bail-outs to companies and manipulation of currency and interest rates to stay competetive on the international market.
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26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Hostile

Re: Zeitgeist Addendum - The concept of a resource based economy
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2011, 03:20:15 pm »
Yep, a new movie from Zeitgeist. If you're interested, watch it from the link below, or downlaod it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gnjRLsKnd0

Edit: Just finished watching it, and loved it. Liked it even more than Zeitgeist: Addendum. A lot more, actually.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 05:36:00 pm by Hostile »
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