Print

Cruel v0.96 – 50lt
IP: 69.255.183.244
Game Mode: Death Match
Lives: 5
Max Kills: 0
Version: OpenLieroX 0.58 rc3

Players:
iRod(0 lives, 0 kills)
[CPU]I'm Not A Human(0 lives, 2 kills)
[CPU]I'm Not A Human(2 lives, 0 kills)

Liero v1.0 – 20lt
IP: 91.156.42.210
Game Mode: Death Match
Lives: 5
Max Kills: 20
Version: OpenLieroX 0.58 rc3

Players:

Modern Warfare1.0 – 20lt
IP: 37.205.11.54
Game Mode: Death Match
Lives: 7
Max Kills: 23
Version: OpenLieroX 0.58 rc3

Players:

[albert]

I have already posted some side notes about Gusanos physics in OLX here and there. Probably this subproject of OLX will also lead me to a Gusanos standalone fork. Esp. this means Gusanos for MacOSX and many other systems.

Here some news I posted over at Gusanos:
http://comser.robal.org/forum/index.php/topic,746.0.html

[albert]

Some first video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnNnRFaxgWQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnNnRFaxgWQ</a>

[pelya]

This is great everything using SDL as I understand? No netplay yet?
Yay, scripted levels! Jump plate on the Poo Arena bottom works.

[Gaston]

Great work. Like someone said at the Comser forum, Gusanos gameplay + LX community = Win

[miri]

I'm sorry, I'm a little pessimistic about this. If Windows' player plays over the net with a Mac OSX's player, it can mean unstabile games and lots of bugs. Can I just suggest you don't add any features yet, and if you plan to add anything, discuss it with the community before you implement anything.

[pelya]

Can I just suggest you don't add any features yet, and if you plan to add anything, discuss it with the community before you implement anything.

Gusanos are already crossplatform, so no issues may arise there.
"discuss it with the community" means that you old farts will smite any change and whine that "we ruined the game" in thousandth time.

We won't change anything from Gusanos, we'll just make it part of OLX.

[albert]

I'm sorry, I'm a little pessimistic about this. If Windows' player plays over the net with a Mac OSX's player, it can mean unstabile games and lots of bugs. Can I just suggest you don't add any features yet, and if you plan to add anything, discuss it with the community before you implement anything.

What exactly do you mean? We have that since two years. Do you know that you can run OLX on Linux and MacOSX?

[albert]

A new video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qUiRhQFWWo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qUiRhQFWWo</a>

[albert]

And a new one:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vze9ovS6jG4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vze9ovS6jG4</a>

[Asrack]

Sweet. If there is one thing I love about Gusanos it's the mods. I wish the game was a bit more user friendly though. It's to bad that it can't have the easy of OLX/LX with the greatness of Gusanos.

Doom mod ftw

[albert]

Wait for OLX 0.59.

[Asrack]

Wait for OLX 0.59.

Arg Albert, you always leave me curious.

Alright, I will have some patience, you have me excited now. Thats cool though, your doing great work then, I was thinking about picking up a Mac Book sometime soon for school so this is good news for me.

[Rakkula]

"discuss it with the community" means that you old farts will smite any change...

First of all, I've got against development. To my mind OLX should be developed, otherwise it would die a lot sooner. I think it's great that someone still bothers to develop a game like Lierox.
        The main problem is that you don't seem to have a clear direction where you want to take this game. At least this was the case a few months ago when a huge avalanche of new features were implemented to OLX. And I still do not understand why you want to keep all versions compatible! The game really is unfair these days. You lack the big picture and the long time view!
       
When you develop a game, you should direct it to somebody. You can't expect a game to be succesful if it doesn't have a target group. The only proper target group you're ever going to get for this game is this community. Therefore, its suggestions and criticism should be worth gold for you. I'm afraid I feel the community is pretty much left out of something that is really important for the prospects of this game.

...and whine that "we ruined the game" in thousandth time.

You haven't ruined it. At least not yet. In my opinion the current problems are related to the game's inconsistency and imbalance. Read "backwards compatibility". OLX can be a good game, but it's seriously time for you to make some radical choices.

[albert]

Why do you always think that we don't have a clear direction? What do you think this thread is about?

Btw., ForceMinVersion and ForceCompatibleConnect was introduced in 0.58, so it's already there. You just need to use it. And if you or your friends or whoever doesn't use 0.58, please speak to us and tell us the reasons. So far, I didn't got almost a single complaint about 0.58 beta9. (But post any stuff about this in the other thread, so this doesn't become OT here.)

[Rakkula]

Why do you always think that we don't have a clear direction?

Because many of the features you've implemented seem like things that might seem cool at first but don't really serve the game's best interest in the long run.

What do you think this thread is about?

Gusanos being implemented to OLX. But what does that do in the long run?

Btw., ForceMinVersion and ForceCompatibleConnect was introduced in 0.58, so it's already there.

Awesome! Wait... say what? What's that?

And if you or your friends or whoever doesn't use 0.58, please speak to us and tell us the reasons.

I'm not claiming to be awere of OLX's latest development, but the main reasons fall in the category of imbalance. I've also stated this several times before. I test the newest version before I start saying that your current version exhibits these same problems.

If you do have a long time plan, I'd appreciate if you shared it with the community. Then possible changes can be discussed and our curiosity would be satisfied.

@albert: Please don't take my criticism to heart. I know that I stick mainly to negative sides in my feedback, but you developers are doing a good job. There these few things that still bug me though. Things I haven't received a good clarification so far.

[albert]

ForceMinVersion is to force a minimum client version. It's like many other features where a minimum version is required, only that in this case you can specify it on your own. So if you think that for example everything since 0.58 beta1 is balanced and you don't want to allow all older clients on your server, set this to 0.58 beta1.

ForceCompatibleConnect forces all connecting clients to be compatible. I.e. non-compatible (that includes also clients older than ForceMinVersion) cannot connect at all to your server. Without that, they can connect and they will get a message in lobby and once you start the game, they are kicked out.

Gusanos merged with OLX will have a lot of impact in the long run. Have you watched those videos? The physics, the sounds and the graphics effects are impressive and the amount of possibilities are almost endless because we would have scriptable levels/mods (based on Lua).

[Rakkula]

Gusanos merged with OLX will have a lot of impact in the long run. Have you watched those videos? The physics, the sounds and the graphics effects are impressive and the amount of possibilities are almost endless because we would have scriptable levels/mods (based on Lua).

Yeah, so I figured. I did watch through the videos, and to be honest, I loved them. I've hoped liero could have physics and weapons like that. There were a few things that could be better though, like light reflection. There really shouldn't be those distinctive lines between lighted and dark areas. Looks very cool though.
          After changes like that, isn't it a good idea to drop the backwards compatibility? If you really will carry this out I will update to that version presuming enough people will do so also and there will be enough servers to play on etc.  If I really wanted it to appeal to larger groups of people too, I'd add mouse aiming. And I mean a proper mouse aiming. Just like in Soldat.
         If you plan to carry out as radical changes as those, Liero might actually have a change.

Anyhow, I like the idea of merging OLX with Gusanos (which isn't under development anymore, is it?).

ForceMinVersion is to force a minimum client version. ForceCompatibleConnect forces all connecting clients to be compatible.

Okay.

[albert]

If you play the Gusanos physics in a server, old clients cannot connect to that anyway.

Yea, we (or at least I) are working on that. What you can see in those videos is one of the first results. It will take a while though, still a lot of work to do. Also performance could be better, as you can see in the videos, many lights sucks down the FPS a lot.

Btw., I think all the lights are fully scripted. So it is the choose by the modder how he want to have the lights. This is the doom mod. There are many other mods.

[miri]

I'm sorry, I'm a little pessimistic about this. If Windows' player plays over the net with a Mac OSX's player, it can mean unstabile games and lots of bugs. Can I just suggest you don't add any features yet, and if you plan to add anything, discuss it with the community before you implement anything.

What exactly do you mean? We have that since two years. Do you know that you can run OLX on Linux and MacOSX?

Of course I know. I'm talking about this:

Probably this subproject of OLX will also lead me to a Gusanos standalone fork. Esp. this means Gusanos for MacOSX and many other systems.

[albert]

I'm sorry, I'm a little pessimistic about this. If Windows' player plays over the net with a Mac OSX's player, it can mean unstabile games and lots of bugs. Can I just suggest you don't add any features yet, and if you plan to add anything, discuss it with the community before you implement anything.

What exactly do you mean? We have that since two years. Do you know that you can run OLX on Linux and MacOSX?

Of course I know. I'm talking about this:

Probably this subproject of OLX will also lead me to a Gusanos standalone fork. Esp. this means Gusanos for MacOSX and many other systems.

Why should it be different than for OLX? Why should it be a problem at all? OLX, as well as Gusanos, behaves exactly the same on Windows as on Linux as on MacOSX, also for networking.

But you may have understood it anyway wrong because there wont be network in the standalone Gusanos fork (which is already ready, btw, just not published but probably I wont) because we would have it anyway in OLX.

[albert]

For those who are interested, here is the one and only MacOSX binary of Gusanos:

http://www.4shared.com/file/166912898/74d5ade/Gusanos-abad861-20091206-macos.html

That should be the state from commit abad861. I have prepared the app bundle in a way that it (hopefully) also works elsewhere. It is Intel-only, though (I doubt that it would work on PPC anyway in that state) and not sure about the minimum MacOSX version, probably at least 10.4. (I myself use 10.5 and it works here.)

Also some further notes:

- It is very unlikely that I will ever update this. The main project is to merge Gusanos and OLX and once that is done, this standalone is obsolete anyway (and OLX will be able to load any Gusanos mod/level, i.e. it will stay compatible).

- It already uses the OLX option file and searchpaths (so don't wonder that Gusanos will create the directory ~/Library/Application Support/OpenLieroX).

- It comes with some default levels and doom mod (and its levels) (any other level/mod should work, didn't tried though but you can easily add it yourself).

- Only singleplayer.

- Other gfx modes than window-mode with 640x480 will not work.

- Default keys of this app bundle are F3 (console), left/right/up/down, lctrl, lshift, x.

Well, enjoy if those limitations aren't showstoppers for you.

[SorZ]

I downloaded it, but I when I tried to open it nothing happend.

Mac OS X 10.4.11
1.83 GHz Intel Duo Core

[Anarchid]

Yay, i can post. So itt i'll spam my troubles here now.

The few latest builds fail for me:

Code: [Select]

anarchid@komponent:~/Games/openlierox/src/gusanos$ scons
scons: Reading SConscript files ...
scons: done reading SConscript files.
scons: Building targets ...
g++ -o proxy_player.o -c -ggdb -Wall -DDEBUG -DNBREAKPAD -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -I. -I/home/anarchid/Games/openlierox/include -I/usr/include/libxml2 -I/usr/include/SDL proxy_player.cpp
In file included from proxy_player.cpp:2:
player_options.h:6:24: error: util/angle.h: No such file or directory
player_options.h:7:29: error: gusanos/allegro.h: No such file or directory
In file included from proxy_player.cpp:2:
player_options.h: In function 'int universalToLocalColor(int)':
player_options.h:20: error: 'makecol' was not declared in this scope
player_options.h: At global scope:
player_options.h:28: error: 'AngleDiff' does not name a type
player_options.h:30: error: 'AngleDiff' does not name a type
scons: *** [proxy_player.o] Error 1
scons: building terminated because of errors.

Are any versions past abad861 supposed to be usable as standalone, or have you already gone for the drastic radical integration agenda?

Upd: more obscure stuff with, this from abad861:

Code: [Select]

In file included from src/allegro.h:642,
                 from src/lua51/lmem.c:21:
/usr/include/stdio.h:653:33: error: macro "getline" passed 3 arguments, but takes just 2
scons: *** [src/lua51/lmem.o] Error 1
scons: building terminated because of errors.
[/quote]

[pelya]

If I really wanted it to appeal to larger groups of people too, I'd add mouse aiming. And I mean a proper mouse aiming. Just like in Soldat.

Don't tease me
Ye let's add mouse aiming and force oldies to use never OLX 'cause otherwise they'll loose to any noob

[Anarchid]

Ye let's add mouse aiming and force oldies to use never OLX 'cause otherwise they'll loose to any noob

Having it as a mod-specific option would cater to both needs, no? :3

Just to spice things up a little, this could also be done by allowing the gus-inherited Lua to access mouse coordinates on the client - so the newfags would have their possibility to create a soldat-like mod, but having it that less obvious.

[pelya]

Yay, i can post. So itt i'll spam my troubles here now.

Congratulations! And welcome to LXA

The few latest builds fail for me:

Yeah, the build fails using scons, I guess Albert forgot to commit some files - use XCode project if you have one . I've updated SCons project though.
Hey Albert, we have gusFrame() function on vermes.cpp, which should be called from our main.cpp as I understand, but it is not referenced from ANY source file. How this stuff even compiles for you?

[pelya]

Having it as a mod-specific option would cater to both needs, no? :3

Just to spice things up a little, this could also be done by allowing the gus-inherited Lua to access mouse coordinates on the client - so the newfags would have their possibility to create a soldat-like mod, but having it that less obvious.

Could be done I think, 'cause Teh Community spammed that we "ruined LX" with mouse aiming, and they (mostly) never saw anything but LX, so if we'll add mouse to Gusanos mods this may pass unnoticed.
That also could be done when we'll make new physics, Newton-consistent and clean from LX56 bugs like shooting through walls. So new ptysics will enable mouse-aiming, and in "compatibility" mode  on LX56 server there will be keyboard only (and ton of other great features cut off).
Just let them play their LX56 crap and don't bother us anymore.

[Rakkula]

Having it as a mod-specific option would cater to both needs, no? :3

No.

Could be done I think, 'cause Teh Community spammed that we "ruined LX" with mouse aiming

You didn't ruin LX with it. You just ruined it for them. I say go for it!

[Anarchid]

"compatibility" mode  on LX56 server

ITT having it be a mod setting rather than a server setting would be cleaner on the user side of experience so "they" won't start wondering why the same mod behaves differently on two servers who display the same version number.

But then i'm also that type of person who thinks playing 1.3 with bannings is wrong and any specific balance preset should be its own mod (separate morts from mw, and so on). And i'm not the one who's going to code that - i'll just stick to silly Lua once it makes its way to OLX

[Asrack]

Could be done I think, 'cause Teh Community spammed that we "ruined LX" with mouse aiming

You didn't ruin LX with it. You just ruined it for them. I say go for it!

And then after removing the sole thing that makes LieroX the game it is. Then can you add RPG elements!. We should be able to add skills, and make monsters, scenarios that are scriptable so we can make our own games!

Here is a mock up of what it can look like.


Hell why not just rip off of wow and make it 3D and add all kinds of different talents. I wanna be a Ninja Taro Tank, with 42000 HP!


For those who don't know, this is a sarcastic post.

[pelya]

Could be done I think, 'cause Teh Community spammed that we "ruined LX" with mouse aiming

You didn't ruin LX with it. You just ruined it for them. I say go for it!

And then after removing the sole thing that makes LieroX the game it is. Then can you add RPG elements!. We should be able to add skills, and make monsters, scenarios that are scriptable so we can make our own games!

I've said, DON'T TEASE ME! Or there will be RPG elements in 0.59 especially for your pleasure, you don't know how it's tempting, 'cuz I failed to create simple MUD when I was in school, I'll insert whole Final Fantasy 6 in OLX MWAHAHA!

[Asrack]

Could be done I think, 'cause Teh Community spammed that we "ruined LX" with mouse aiming

You didn't ruin LX with it. You just ruined it for them. I say go for it!

And then after removing the sole thing that makes LieroX the game it is. Then can you add RPG elements!. We should be able to add skills, and make monsters, scenarios that are scriptable so we can make our own games!

I've said, DON'T TEASE ME! Or there will be RPG elements in 0.59 especially for your pleasure, you don't know how it's tempting, 'cuz I failed to create simple MUD when I was in school, I'll insert whole Final Fantasy 6 in OLX MWAHAHA!

Oh dude I love RPG's, you add RPG stuff you have me sold. I would do anything for you, thtas how happy I would be.

[Rakkula]

And then after removing the sole thing that makes LieroX the game it is.

Arrow aiming is the sole thing that makes LieroX the game it is? In that case the situation is much worse than I thought. I figured this had at least something more to it than just arrow aiming.

Bull's stuff, that ain't right.

[Anarchid]

Oh dude I love RPG's, you add RPG stuff you have me sold. I would do anything for you, thtas how happy I would be.

In the Spring community they have this saying:
"It's already doable by Lua"
Well, even if the Gus lua framework to be inherited by OLX now won't be expanded (and i'm going to watch and wait and try to lobby in some enhancements), some Gus mods already had stuff like "character classes" whatnot

(in fact, /me is kinda guilty for one of these, even if that's an optional feature)

However, there's a distinction to be made here - is OLX to be a game, or an engine? Because Gusanos and Spring mods are so different that the latter's philosophy explicitly states that it's an engine and not a game, and calls it's mods "games". Also, Gusanos command for changing mods is "game whatever"

[Asrack]

Yeah I have made quite a few mods for LX and have been desperately awaiting for LUA for ages. I can't wait to sink my teeth into it.  I would have made mods for Gusanos, but with them always talking about a new version and not being great for playing online I never felt it to be that good of an idea.

I might take it up when it's added to OLX for the sake of having some fun.

Although that could be awhile cause Dragon Age just took over my life for a bit.

[albert]

I downloaded it, but I when I tried to open it nothing happend.

Mac OS X 10.4.11
1.83 GHz Intel Duo Core

Maybe 10.4 is too old.

Can you give me the console output? (For example, start it from within the console and copy&paste the output here.)

[albert]

Yay, i can post. So itt i'll spam my troubles here now.

Congratulations! And welcome to LXA

The few latest builds fail for me:

Yeah, the build fails using scons, I guess Albert forgot to commit some files - use XCode project if you have one . I've updated SCons project though.
Hey Albert, we have gusFrame() function on vermes.cpp, which should be called from our main.cpp as I understand, but it is not referenced from ANY source file. How this stuff even compiles for you?

Haven't you read my last mail?

Of course it compiles (where is the problem?) but it isn't used yet. It is a WIP.

[albert]

However, there's a distinction to be made here - is OLX to be a game, or an engine? Because Gusanos and Spring mods are so different that the latter's philosophy explicitly states that it's an engine and not a game, and calls it's mods "games". Also, Gusanos command for changing mods is "game whatever"

OLX itself is supposed to be a game (at least the current project).

But I already plan to make a more general project out of it, like the OLX-engine project, with the subproject OLX and with probably another subproject with much different playstyle (probably with mouse aiming and what not) but which will be seperated then from OLX and OLX would be incompatible to it.

So it's more like a general engine codewise. See Quake3 as a very similar example. Quake3 uses the Quake3-engine but is incompatible though to all other Q3-engine based games like RTCW and what not.

[albert]

The few latest builds fail for me:
...

Are any versions past abad861 supposed to be usable as standalone, or have you already gone for the drastic radical integration agenda?

I fixed that one or two commits later and they should still work.

If not, I don't really think it is worth to investigate much time into why it doesn't.

[Anarchid]

If not, I don't really think it is worth to investigate much time into why it doesn't.

oh well, i guess i can wait after all/

[Gaston]

Could be done I think, 'cause Teh Community spammed that we "ruined LX" with mouse aiming, and they (mostly) never saw anything but LX, so if we'll add mouse to Gusanos mods this may pass unnoticed.
That also could be done when we'll make new physics, Newton-consistent and clean from LX56 bugs like shooting through walls. So new ptysics will enable mouse-aiming, and in "compatibility" mode  on LX56 server there will be keyboard only (and ton of other great features cut off).
Just let them play their LX56 crap and don't bother us anymore.

- Mouse aim being mod specific is pure WIN. Do it! If the modder means for the mod to be mouse-aiming, let her/him choose it.

- Having a good steady physics engine, is always cool, but things like wallshooting should be possible if the mod maker wants to do it (though I imagine it will be with LUA scripting)

[Feliz Lombriz]

Just checking before I upload it. The build you put up for download is the most up-to-date working build for Mac, yes?

[albert]

@Feliz: Yes.

@Gaston: There are much more different materials in Gus-levels than in LX. You can for example have a material which blocks worms but don't have any interaction with projectiles.

[albert]

First, if you haven't read at the Gus forum, I need some help in replacing copyrighted sounds from Gusanos mods with open sounds. Check out the Gusanos forum for more information.

----

Some updates about the merge:

There is finally some playable version of OLX with Gusanos engine. Still somewhat buggy. Some parts are also not merged yet:

- Gus weapons / LX weapons are independent whereby there wont be a situation where you would have both
- input system ignores settings like LX-like ninjarope (where you have an extra key for ninjarope) and strafing Edit: LX-like ninjarope also works in Gus mods now
- drawing of LX projectiles in Gusanos drawing loop (needed when you want to play a Gus map with a LX mod)

And some more stuff.

Network support is not even started yet.

LX bots are somewhat buggy in Gusanos mods. The aiming doesn't really work for some reason. Edit: Fixed aiming a bit.

It should compile fine / out-of-the-box on Linux/Unix/MacOSX. Checkout the Gusanos-0.59 Git branch if you are interested.

[Anarchid]

[pelya]

cmake -DBREAKPAD=0 . && make

[Anarchid]

cmake -DBREAKPAD=0 . && make

<3 <3 <3

[Anarchid]

Been toying with the thing.
SRS STUFF:
- Will crash if you use LX map with Gus mod.
- Will crash if you play a Gus mod with LX options for bonuses and/or force random weapons.

Not so SRS:
- How do you summon OLX console? Does it accept custom commands defined in Gus mod scripts?
- Sometime in the future, it would be nice if Gus custom controls could be somehow mapped from OLX UI.
- I foresee that there will be need to add a Lua binding/key id for the olx-style rope key.

[Gaston]

If you mean ingame, I think it should be set by default to be "|" (the button next to "1" on my keyboard.)

[albert]

About the crashes: It's not finished but I am working on that.

About the console: Right now, all Gus variables get registered as string variables in OLX. They have all the prefix "Gusanos.". I plan to map the commands in a similar way later (perhaps all with a "gus" prefix).

(Console default key is F3. But you can change that in game options.)

About the input mapping: This is a bit more difficult. The way you are binding keys to commands is very different from the OLX input system. In OLX, you have certain input slots (like jump,fire,whatever) and you are binding the keys to these input slots. I am still not sure how to map this in a nice way. Perhaps we need to recode the whole OLX input system. But I like the Gus input system, it gives much more possibilities.

The ninja rope is not triggered at all as a local player input event in Gus. It directly triggeres a ninjarope basicaction.

[albert]

Some progess in merging:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d_Sxknqd3k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwcH1n_2Pzs

(The speed of the second video is a bit strange at the first half. This is only the video capturing software.)

Some more technical notes, also some open for discussion: (Text copied from what I wrote in OLX-mailinglist.)

LX maps with Gus mods: Pixelflags needs either to be merged (in that
case get rid of old flags and use Gusanos flags) or write some small
on-the-fly-Gus-flags-creator when loading a LX map (second case may work
fine for now and means much less work).

Comboing: Gusanos people really hate that. When playing Gus in OLX, it
is anyway not supported because we use the original Gus input code right
now. I think it would be better in the end to have an option for this,
so you could also play LX without comboing - or Gus with comboing.

Ninjarope attached to worm is not supported by Gus. Add that and make it
optional, also for original LX? (Similar situation as comboing.)
(Ninjarope class is also seperated yet.)

Bots movement is buggy (probably the input wrapping code). Either more
merging or some more fixes there.

Weapons are independent. Things like weapon reselection are not working
because of that. Weapon selection is also handled fully by Gus (but
that's ok and should be like that because mods may handle that - some
mods may have fixed weapons, they also control the amount of weapons and
they also control the weapon selection itself, i.e. the menu).

Gus drawing is currently a bit slow. Perhaps some merging between the
sizefactor-code and Gus could make it faster, would also solve crashes
when using a sizefactor>1.

Gus worm drawing uses only the Gusanos worm skin, not the LX one.

LX mod with Gusanos map: The Gusanos drawing code is used in that case.
Worm drawing need to be fixed for that case, LX-ninjarope and projectile
Gus-drawing code need to be implemented. (Gus-drawing is different from
LX-drawing: everything scaled half.)

Sound playing code must reset the listener position when not using the
Gusanos sound playing functions. (Otherwise it just remembers the last
position and sound volume seems random.)

We also could enable the LX-3D-sound code now.

Still haven't done any network code for Gus.

Gusanos input is still active even when gameover-screen shows up or when
console is shown.

Gusanos map/mod loading is buggy in some cases. For example, once you
loaded a non-default mod and try to reload the default (Gus) mod, it
doesn't work and you still have the non-default mod. Seems it doesn't
unload the old stuff correctly. It seem to get slower and slower also,
so it really may not correctly free some resources. In some other cases
though, it seem to free some resources twice, i.e. it crashes because of
that. Also many related Gus errors on console.

Gusanos worms doesn't have lives (I think). As I anyway cannot
understand how anybody could set limited lives in a game, I don't really
care about this. And Gus will ignore the LX setting for limited lives
(except when you hit gameover because OLX still handles when the game is
over).

Gus has its own respawning function for worms. (Reason also why it
ignores LX-worm-lives.) They differ somewhat, not sure if it would be a
good idea to merge it with the LX-spawn-function (you easily may break
Gus mods if you change it).

In general: Don't change any Gus functions! Most of it can be called by
Gus scripts and if you change them, it will change how Gus mods behave,
maybe even totally break some Gus mods.

For each respawn in Gusanos, you need to hit the jump button to get back
into the game (similar to games like Quake3). Not sure if we should make
it configureable or change that. I kind of like that way more than the
LX-way.

Bots are to stupid yet to understand the primary/secondary weapon fire.
Right now, if bShoot==false -> bShoot==true, I was triggering a Gus
Fire-start-event and if bShoot==true -> bShoot==false, I was triggering
a Gus Fire-stop-event. This is wrong for a lot of Gusanos weapons where
you need to wait a while until the Fire-stop-event. (Just play a bit the
Doom mod or so and you will see what I mean.)

Gusanos supports changeable ninjarope length. No idea if it is worth to
add that to OLX (in that case make it optional).

[Anarchid]

Ninjarope attached to worm is not supported by Gus. Add that and make it
optional, also for original LX? (Similar situation as comboing.)
(Ninjarope class is also seperated yet.)

It is possible to circumvent this in vanilla gus by making the default rope object be invisible and selfdestruct on creation. Then you intercept the rope key combination via Lua, and spawn your own object with whatever you want, or even custom gadgets that aren't rope at all. This is the reason i argued for binding of OLX rope key. See DarkArts mod for reference. (btw most of it will work in olx, but you have to use the gadgets like ninjarope the old way, with two buttons)

Gusanos worms doesn't have lives (I think). As I anyway cannot
understand how anybody could set limited lives in a game, I don't really
care about this. And Gus will ignore the LX setting for limited lives
(except when you hit gameover because OLX still handles when the game is
over).

Again, in vanilla gus this was `already doable by Lua`. The same DarkArts has a setting for limited lives. It's not useable in OLX/Gus since it relies on a rather hax way of storing the settings between loading of each map (it stores all these settings in an unused server var net_server_desc and parses it on init; it could be presumably set from console, but i failed to find how to access gus variables properly).

Promode has similar stuff and more (like ctf, etc).

It might be a good idea to keep it this way for the sake of extensibility from the modder's viewpoint. Just give Lua acess to the relevant client/server variables, and off you go with infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

Bots are to stupid yet to understand the primary/secondary weapon fire.

It might be going over the top to try to create a bot that will be able to handle anything a lua-enabled game can pop out. They analyzed the possibilities in Spring RTS, and while there were some very clever ideas on Lua-Ai interactions (like exporting doctrines/resource values/etc), the convention seemed to be to create a customm AI to play each game. I went for the latter anyways: it was easier.

If there is really a need for an extra-powerful bot that will play a certain mod very well, it might be a good idea to expose bots to Lua as well.

[Anarchid]

[DarkCharlie]

Add this at the top of CMap.h and CGameObject.h:

Code: [Select]

#include "gusanos/allegro.h"


[Anarchid]

#include "gusanos/allegro.h"

Doesn't seem to work. :-(

[DarkCharlie]

What system & compiler are you using? Compiles fine for me on Windows and Ubuntu.

[Anarchid]

What system & compiler are you using? Compiles fine for me on Windows and Ubuntu.

The system is Xubuntu Karmic with kernel 2.6.31-16-generic #53-Ubuntu SMP.
Arch is x86_64. The compiler is gcc 4.4.1, gcc -v says:

Code: [Select]

gcc -v
Using built-in specs.
Target: x86_64-linux-gnu
Configured with: ../src/configure -v --with-pkgversion='Ubuntu 4.4.1-4ubuntu8' --with-bugurl=file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.4/README.Bugs --enable-languages=c,c++,fortran,objc,obj-c++ --prefix=/usr --enable-shared --enable-multiarch --enable-linker-build-id --with-system-zlib --libexecdir=/usr/lib --without-included-gettext --enable-threads=posix --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/include/c++/4.4 --program-suffix=-4.4 --enable-nls --enable-clocale=gnu --enable-libstdcxx-debug --enable-objc-gc --disable-werror --with-arch-32=i486 --with-tune=generic --enable-checking=release --build=x86_64-linux-gnu --host=x86_64-linux-gnu --target=x86_64-linux-gnu
Thread model: posix
gcc version 4.4.1 (Ubuntu 4.4.1-4ubuntu8)

Previous versions before 2691a9b compiled well for me too, with exception of the stuff posted here (like disabling dbreakpad and specifying -mt version of boost libs for linking).

[DarkCharlie]

I just compiled the newest GIT on my Ubuntu Karmic x86_64, GCC 4.4.1 (also with the breakpad and boost workarounds).
Revert all the changes that you might have made and git pull again. Also re-run cmake.

Code: [Select]

git reset --hard HEAD
git pull "origin" Gusanos-0.59
cmake -DBREAKPAD=0 .
make clean
make


[Anarchid]

The latest snapshot compiles again. Some notes:
- There are at least two Gusanos mods that have stuff like cloaking, which is achieved by making the worm skin blank and then either spawning or not spawning a "skin" object depending on whether the cloak is on/off. This is broken by the advent of LX skins in Gus mods.
- Gusanos physics has settings for the size of its worms. Mods that use this setting would typically provide their own custom-sized skin to match the changed wormsize. Again, this is broken by LX skins.
- For some obscure reason, the LX skin gets rendered above the physical worm, not where it's supposed to be.
- Doom teleportal misbehaves again (it's supposed to be thrown like a grenade and then the second time you press fire you get teleported to where the device currently lays, worked fine in the previous revision i could compile)

Possible solution pathways that i can imagine:
- make  the Lua set_visible call work on worms and scale the LX skin to fit the physical worm, and make them render where they should
- OR get rid of LX skins (fixes both but, well, gets rid of LX skins)

[albert]

Anarchid, you maybe should also register to the mailinglist because we do the more technical discussion there. Esp. a new discussion was started now about how some specific stuff should be integrated into OLX.

It is very likely that some parts of Gusanos mods will be ignored. We still want the same OLX GUI to define things and setup the game. We also don't want restrict levels to mods. Any maps in the mod-folder will be ignored, so you have to move the levels over to the global OLX level directory. Also, for example, we removed the TCP class. We don't want the Gusanos mods to do custom stuff in Internet. Also, not sure about custom gamemodes yet - maybe we ignore them too. (Btw., are there gamemodes in Gusanos mods which aren't available anyway in OLX? We already have Hide&seek, CTF, Race, team race, DM, TDM and some other in OLX.)

We are not sure exactly yet about how to solve the skinning problem (btw., the wrong rendering is just a bug, will be solved soon). (See mailinglist.)

[Anarchid]

maybe should also register to the mailinglist

Where/how?

We also don't want restrict levels to mods.

There are reasons for allowing mod-specific maps. Which is collision layers. For instance, one mod might define some layer of objects only affectable by a certain weapon, and not others. With the other, you can instead have unwanted behaviour like grabbing map objects (i.e, lights, doors, elevators, etc) with manipulator/telekinesis/etc and throwing them around.

Btw., are there gamemodes in Gusanos mods which aren't available anyway in OLX? We already have Hide&seek, CTF, Race, team race, DM, TDM and some other in OLX

Just a few, so it won't be a major loss. However, it would be nice to have those that exist in OLX customizable to some degree (like change the flag graphics, etc).

[albert]

You can subscribe here:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openlierox-devel

Archive is here:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=openlierox-devel

Well, mod specific levels don't work together with our GUI and I also don't really have an idea how to make that possible (while at the same time having mods/maps completly seperated - that is what we want at OLX).

Also, I still want people to be able to be able to play on maps with any mod which were perhaps only designed for some specific mod. Some special things/objects may not work in that case but perhaps it could still be nice to play it though. I also want people to be able to play LX mods in Gusanos maps.

We are planning to add some more possibilities to overcome these problems, though. For example, we can add some functions to change the flag skin if a modder want to do that. Perhaps you also have some good ideas what we should add there.

I plan in general to keep Gusanos compatibility but to ignore some stuff in Gusanos (not sure what exactly yet - maybe custom worm skins or so and other stuff, maybe mod specific GUI, perhaps also custom key binding overwrites) and add more functions to be able to integrate better into OLX (and maybe fix any possible problems because of those ignored stuff).

[z7]

These are really good news! I've always liked more Gusanos than LieroX because of better physics and good looking mods and scriptable levels.

But I think that OLX has already become too bloated. There are so many mods and settings in LX for beeing such a simple game. Back in good old Liero 1.33 days it was easy to learn the weapons because there was just one mod an there was't so many weapons in it. And now you are adding even more totally different mods.

I don't see a reason why LX should have mods at all. I don't know any other game that has so many different mods and weapons that LX has. Mods are only ruining this game, making it too complicated and seperating players. If someone really would like to create a mod it should be a totally new game and the servers should not show up in the OLX server list.

I also think that skins are not good for this game. This game is Liero (worm in English). There should not be ninjas, frogs, pokemon balls and other characters in this game. Well this is not so big problem to me since I always delete everything but defualt.png skin.

I would also remove server lobby from the game. It really pisses off to see 17 server and only 1 open. (CW's could be handled with sv_restart like in other games)

There also oter things that i don't like in OLX. You are adding thins like music players and IRC in this game. I don't want a whole new desktop enviroment (I already have XFCE and irssi )

So if I was a developer I would take huge steps forwards and leave much things behind. I would take the Gusanos engine and create a single mod that would pleace all players. I would take the skins out of this game and remove Music Player and IRC.

But I'm not a developer and I don't have the skills needed (yet).

I don't want just to complain. You have also done really good job for this game and as a Linux user I really appreciate GPL-lisence and Linux and Mac builds.

I know that many people will disagree with me. But this is just what I, an oldskool Liero player thinks.

[DarkCharlie]

Oh, why import Gusanos engine for creating just one mod? We could just hardcode it like Joosa did it in original Liero.

However, this community has grown mainly because of the great moddability of the game. Even Liero has its mods (total conversions) that were made by patching the original EXE file.

There are always voices when some new feature is introduced that it will split the community. When I remember how many new features there are in OLX, the community would be split into 20 people chunks nowadays 

[Anarchid]

I am observing what seems to be forming encirclement around of gus/olx network systems. Which brings to mind the idea that soon it will be posssible to actually start doing stuff with it.

Some questions:
1) Does OLX have a "simlag" setting that would allow stress-testing of lua stuff with two instances on localhost?
2) Gus and OLX have different syncing patterns (in gus you can't shoot yourself in the back since the projectile start positions don't seem to sync, but that also means a lot of other stuff). Will olx/gus obey its own network pattern, or the OLX one? (if the latter can be arsed up with all the Lua effectively being in the way)

[pelya]

1) Does OLX have a "simlag" setting that would allow stress-testing of lua stuff with two instances on localhost?

Edit CChannel.cpp:429 - set some value to var DEBUG_SIMULATE_LAGGY_CONNECTION_SEND_DELAY, it will add delay to sending packets, but it won't add delay when receiving them. Pretty simple, but should work.

2) Gus and OLX have different syncing patterns (in gus you can't shoot yourself in the back since the projectile start positions don't seem to sync, but that also means a lot of other stuff). Will olx/gus obey its own network pattern, or the OLX one? (if the latter can be arsed up with all the Lua effectively being in the way)

Albert wants to wrap Gus networking stuff with OLX networking stuff, so it will be Gus net engine when playing Gus.
Layer I'll probably use my NewNet engine for Gus, when it will be working for LX. It will eat more CPU but will send much less data over net.

[Anarchid]

Layer I'll probably use my NewNet engine for Gus, when it will be working for LX. It will eat more CPU but will send much less data over net.

This is intriguing. Will it (conceivably) allow for synced Lua like Spring does? The way things currently work, it takes the same amount of work to break sync in Spring that it takes to maintain it in Lua-heavy mods in gus.

(if you just look at what promode Lua does with gus networking, you'll understand what i mean)

[pelya]

Layer I'll probably use my NewNet engine for Gus, when it will be working for LX. It will eat more CPU but will send much less data over net.

This is intriguing. Will it (conceivably) allow for synced Lua like Spring does? The way things currently work, it takes the same amount of work to break sync in Spring that it takes to maintain it in Lua-heavy mods in gus.

(if you just look at what promode Lua does with gus networking, you'll understand what i mean)

Newnet is not totally client-sided, it allows server to send asynchronous events like spawn worm, spawn bonus, set worm damage factor/shield factor etc (damage and shield factors not used currently, I was planing to add some RPG elements to the game using these functions). I think Lua-accessible networking functions can be wrapped into this events. But it won't allow client to send something to server (should be not needed anyway, or we can add it through chat commands interface).

I had a glance in promode code and seems that it re-invents the things the mod should not care about - IRC channel, kickban commands, DM/TDM/CTF gamemodes, some weird statistics - the mod should really care only about weapons, and maybe have some leet stuff like handheld teleporters or levitation, but not implement whole dedicated server mapcycling or voting system (eek, our voting is leeter, once we'll fix it).

[Anarchid]

But it won't allow client to send something to server (should be not needed anyway, or we can add it through chat commands interface).

Unless it somehow eliminates lag and manages to completely transmit all the keys in a synced context, it will need client->server messages if at least for stuff like teleport flashes, which otherwise will render only on client and make teleport be indistingushable from hax

(then, of course, that's exactly what Spring does to great effect - it only transmits orders between units, leaving forced sync completely behind)

Hm. Speaking of hax. Will client still be able to dictate its position and health?

[albert]

No, everything is done serverside.

Clients also do the whole simulation though and they send their key-events to server and they are getting synced via diffs and everything is frequently checked via checksums. And if something is not correct, they can get a new dump of the gamestate (or parts of it). That is roughly how the newnet engine is working.

[Uthar]

This all sounds very interesting  . Any recent progress?

[albert]

Yeah, we are working on network support right now. But currently a bit busy with other stuff.

[albert]

The network support is there and working.

A lot of minor problems need to be fixed yet. Maybe some can try to make a list of all left problems.

[Uthar]

Cool . How many are actually helping you with this?

[albert]

Well, most people try to help here. Esp, DC did some help on the code itself, Pelya also a bit, then some people from the Gus community like Anarchid and others gave important help about the Lua interface and even Gliptic and Basara are there to answer questions.

[albert]

Some update:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDX-IynQSWc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDX-IynQSWc</a>

Then, I am thinking of including also this mod (Telek) into OLX:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7LoqLzK0uQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7LoqLzK0uQ</a>

It already works quite fine, except that some weapons make it a bit slow.

Btw., you should not play with too low loadings time. The Lua engine will become pretty agressive about that.

[pelya]

How about removing LX GUI at lower part of the screen? It doesn't show anything anyway, each Gus mod has it's own GUI.
Chat and minimap should become half-transparent.

[albert]

How about removing LX GUI at lower part of the screen? It doesn't show anything anyway, each Gus mod has it's own GUI.
Chat and minimap should become half-transparent.

Yupp, would be nice. Please do it. Perhaps, that would be even nicer:

- Show last messages the same way as in local play, including chat messages.
- Add messages also to ingame console.
- Make ingame console scrollable with longer history (use the browser widget).

Most other games have it also that way. It has multiple advantages. It doesn't take so much place on the screen, you can also see the background and it will automatically disappear after a while. And if you want to read through some disappeard chat log, just open the ingame console and scroll through it.

Well, anyway, to the state itself: It is mostly ready. I am just searching for bugs now and I think it's mostly ready for the 0.59 release. Please try yourself and report problems if there are any. Esp, test Gusanos network mode.