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Author Topic: Differences in physics between different versions  (Read 8298 times)

albert

Differences in physics between different versions
« on: May 25, 2009, 02:10:32 am »

Rakkula

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 01:12:17 pm »
I totally agree with Sakmongkol, who explained my point better than I could do myself.

Have you ever given much thought to the idea that none of this arguing would take place if you had a forced update feature. Imo, the lack of it is the biggest flaw in OLX.
           Just think about it: you develop this game for maybe years, How many versions do you have after that? 30? If so, there will be huge differences between the earlier and the latest versions. When everyone has a different version the game-play will be far from balanced. If this keeps up you will have to break the compatibility sooner or later and imo I'd be easier if it were sooner.
Quote from: albert
If there are problems while playing with different versions, please report a bug. No such bug/problem was reported at any time yet
You don't get it, do you? Bugs aren't the issue here!
           It's the fact that when everyone plays with different versions, it'll lead to huge imbalance. For instance, the older version users are harder to kill because the damage calculation has improved in the later versions. The physics are changed: in some versions you can shoot through wider walls than in other version etc. etc.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 01:19:51 pm by Rakkula »
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albert

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 03:18:18 pm »
I totally agree with Sakmongkol, who explained my point better than I could do myself.

Have you ever given much thought to the idea that none of this arguing would take place if you had a forced update feature. Imo, the lack of it is the biggest flaw in OLX.
           Just think about it: you develop this game for maybe years, How many versions do you have after that? 30? If so, there will be huge differences between the earlier and the latest versions. When everyone has a different version the game-play will be far from balanced. If this keeps up you will have to break the compatibility sooner or later and imo I'd be easier if it were sooner. You don't get it, do you? Bugs aren't the issue here!
           It's the fact that when everyone plays with different versions, it'll lead to huge imbalance. For instance, the older version users are harder to kill because the damage calculation has improved in the later versions. The physics are changed: in some versions you can shoot through wider walls than in other version etc. etc.

I think you don't quite understand how we are keeping the compatibility.

If we are introducing a new physics engine for example, of course if you play together with an LX56 player, your OLX will take the old physics engine for that. It will have both physics engines included. It will of course be the same behaviour as in LX56, no change.

If you found that there is a difference when playing together with an LX56 player, then this is a serious bug. But as said, no such bug was reported yet. And we are trying hard that the LX56 engine inside of OLX just keeps behaving always the same (in fact, we didn't touched it much at all).

New development will go into a direction where we have a completly seperated physics engine, based on Gusanos. And there will also be the LX56 engine, at the same time - still the same old code, no change there! Perhaps in 10 years, there will be another physics engine, so we would have 3 physics engines available in OLX: the original LX56 engine with original LX56 behaviour (which probably will not be touched at all anymore in the next years), the Gusanos engine and some other new OLX engine. Perhaps we also will include the OpenLiero engine (to have an engine which is almost like original Liero).

To say it again: The LX56 engine inside of the game will behave as LX56 and not different (and I don't understand why you think that this would change, even when we don't touch that code at all anymore). And if you see differences, these are serious bugs. But no such bugs were ever reported yet. If you can show some concrete cases, please make bug reports.

Also, since Beta5, the physics was almost not touched at all. So between Beta5 and Beta8, you really cannot possibly feel a difference. And Beta5 was the same as Beta3-preBeta5 (probably also earlier), just with fixed internal FPS. So it is just more exact as it was earlier (and for people who had very stable 100 FPS before, it was absolutly the same). I wouldn't count that as a difference. As said, if you see a difference and show it in a concrete place, please report that. That was not reported until now.

Sakmongkol

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2009, 03:59:03 pm »
I don't see what the deal is that all such problems should be made into bug reports. I for one wouldn't know what to type in such a report, other than 'the game feels different'. You see people saying this all over LXA.

I don't know how I should explain this difference in more detail, but it is evident when you compare playing with 0.56 to playing b8/b9. Maybe it has to do with the FPS fixes, but it simply feels different. And another thing is the wallshooting, in some cases the users of newer betas have an advantage over 0.56 users because in the newer betas the bullets won't go through some walls through which they would go in 0.56.

I think it would be safe to say that, however ridiculous the competitive scene in LX is, most 'better' competitive players do not use the newer betas due to these differences. This alone, in my opinion, would be enough of a reason to either drop the backwards compatibility, or fix these differences somehow.
"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!"

~ Miles Davis

Wander

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2009, 04:03:19 pm »
If there are problems while playing with different versions, please report a bug. No such bug/problem was reported at any time yet (at least I don't know of any; but check it yourself: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=180059&atid=891648).

Bugs introduced in new versions which weren't there before can always happen. This is also not a OLX specific problem, you see it everywhere. We try to keep the amount of new bugs much lower with every new release but we are not perfect.

Whereby, not much (or any except of lagging?) bugs here reported in Beta8 yet. So it is already pretty low.

Most problems are because we are still cleaning up some old mess in the code and are recoding once in a while some parts of the game (mostly old parts; I guess most newly written code can stay like this for the next 5-10 years, or perhaps even forever; at least that is the way I am trying to code most of the times). And with new code comes the possibility of new bugs. But they will get fixed by the time and so, the overall stability will increase over time. The optimum we are heading at is a codebase which is perfectly stable and never ever need to be changed anymore, because it is so general that any possible addition perfectly fits in. We will of course never get there, but we are *way* closer to it than we were 2 years ago.
I understand that, but when i said that the versions don't always coördinate well together, i meant more than just buggy behavior.
A messy situation occurs when half the people in a server want to play SSH game mode and the other half can't. When some people can play on various gamespeeds and others can not. When some people can join during a game and a host doesn't need to go to lobby, he'll never be in touch with the people on older versions.

I know that none of this is your fault and the stubborn ones should just update, but hey, they somehow just won't (don't ask me). That is why i believed (wanted to believe?) that 1 final version was to be made, without compatibility to LX, LXP and OLX, so that those can all be forgotten and everyone will play the same game again.

I understand this is not the case, and different versions will always be available. So be it..

albert

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2009, 04:20:21 pm »
I don't see what the deal is that all such problems should be made into bug reports. I for one wouldn't know what to type in such a report, other than 'the game feels different'. You see people saying this all over LXA.

I don't know how I should explain this difference in more detail, but it is evident when you compare playing with 0.56 to playing b8/b9. Maybe it has to do with the FPS fixes, but it simply feels different. And another thing is the wallshooting, in some cases the users of newer betas have an advantage over 0.56 users because in the newer betas the bullets won't go through some walls through which they would go in 0.56.

I think it would be safe to say that, however ridiculous the competitive scene in LX is, most 'better' competitive players do not use the newer betas due to these differences. This alone, in my opinion, would be enough of a reason to either drop the backwards compatibility, or fix these differences somehow.

If it was because your FPS was not fixed to 100 FPS earlier, this is just not valid.

And such statements like "I think it feels different, but I don't know exactly" really don't help. No one ever was able to give a concrete example and reported that on SF. So I am starting to think that it's just in your feelings. Others also have said that they think the worm were moving slower in Beta8 than before. That one has been figured out as just to be an illusion because they had played some games with increased speed before.

If you can give examples, please do so and report them on SF. A general bug report like "I think it is different but no idea..." doesn't help anyway. It must be a very concrete example. Make multiple bug reports if you find multiple differences.

Up to now, no single difference was reported.

But, if anyone ever reports any difference, I really would like to work on that and trying to fix it. This is very important to me. I just wonder a bit though because, esp. lately, nothing really was changed in the physics code (at least nothing I know of).

albert

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 04:22:28 pm »
I think it would be safe to say that, however ridiculous the competitive scene in LX is, most 'better' competitive players do not use the newer betas due to these differences. This alone, in my opinion, would be enough of a reason to either drop the backwards compatibility, or fix these differences somehow.

I also don't still understand that argument. That doesn't really make sense. That is like you would say: I don't like using Windows Vista because I am able to run XP applications there.

albert

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 04:26:27 pm »

Sakmongkol

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 04:44:50 pm »
I also don't still understand that argument. That doesn't really make sense. That is like you would say: I don't like using Windows Vista because I am able to run XP applications there.

If by 'argument' you mean my view that the backwards compatibility should be dropped, I said that just because I think that would be the only way to force people to start using the newest version.

But the reasons why these people still use the old versions, are still partially beyond me. That is just how it seems to be to me: most 'better' players use old versions, mainly 0.56 and b1 I believe. Maybe I am not experienced enough to understand why it is so, but for example Gyogyi has told me that no good player would use b8 (as I recall), and he even tried to show me some differences in the physics as reasons for this. I personally don't notice any particularly big differences, but I would like to believe it can't be just an illusion as so many people still keep using the old ones.
"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!"

~ Miles Davis

albert

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 05:00:05 pm »
If by 'argument' you mean my view that the backwards compatibility should be dropped, I said that just because I think that would be the only way to force people to start using the newest version.

But the reasons why these people still use the old versions, are still partially beyond me. That is just how it seems to be to me: most 'better' players use old versions, mainly 0.56 and b1 I believe. Maybe I am not experienced enough to understand why it is so, but for example Gyogyi has told me that no good player would use b8 (as I recall), and he even tried to show me some differences in the physics as reasons for this. I personally don't notice any particularly big differences, but I would like to believe it can't be just an illusion as so many people still keep using the old ones.

Well, nobody ever reported particular examples. So either they just don't want to support the development of OLX or don't care about it or there is just not such a difference.

Also, when dropping the compatibility, how would that force people who like LX56 more than OLX (for whatever reason) to use OLX?

Perhaps I can add a checkbox like "don't allow LX56 players on this server". Whereby I still think that would not make much sense.

miri

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 05:00:23 pm »
The roping feels different. In the recent betas, the ground friction is higher and thus you move slower than you would move using 0.56. It is difficult to explain it, Albert, you just have to download the older versions of this game and compare the psychics. As far as I remember, the change was especially sudden with beta5. But I might be wrong.
[Cop] miri

albert

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 05:10:00 pm »
The roping feels different. In the recent betas, the ground friction is higher and thus you move slower than you would move using 0.56. It is difficult to explain it, Albert, you just have to download the older versions of this game and compare the psychics. As far as I remember, the change was especially sudden with beta5. But I might be wrong.

Please try all the different EXEs from the different revisions and say in which revision it is different. And don't report it here, report it on SF. And also, say more exactly what is different, not just that it feels different. I can't do much about it. Also, how much FPS did you have in LX56? If you had something different than fixed 100 FPS, of course it is obvious that it must feel different (because the LX56 physics pretty much depends on the FPS). Then the whole difference is anyway just invalid. So be sure that you have 100 FPS in LX56 before you try to make out any more detailed differences.

Edit: If you think that it changed with Beta5, I very much think that it is because of the fixed FPS since then. No need to do more testing then. Or if you still think that it is different, also to LX56 with 100FPS, then try that somehow.

For your example (about the rope), I think we have never changed anything there in the code since LX56. This special code part is also rather trivial, I very much highly doubt that there is a difference.

Btw., about different FPS: I think all the complaints which are based on different physics behaviour because of different FPS show a bit that LX56 itself (just LX56 players for themself) is much more unbalanced (because it is different on every computer) than for OLX or any combination of the newer OLXs (since Beta5) with LX56 or other OLXs. The whole discussion that it becomes more unbalanced in each new version is a bit senseless when taking care of that, because in fact it is becoming more balanced. You have now (on every computer) the behaviour as with 100 FPS in LX56.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 05:17:27 pm by albert »

Wander

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2009, 05:40:42 pm »
Well, nobody ever reported particular examples. So either they just don't want to support the development of OLX or don't care about it or there is just not such a difference.

Also, when dropping the compatibility, how would that force people who like LX56 more than OLX (for whatever reason) to use OLX?

Perhaps I can add a checkbox like "don't allow LX56 players on this server". Whereby I still think that would not make much sense.
Ofcourse that doesn't make sense. It is the partial (optional) compatibility that is the whole problem!

And yes, i do think that dropping all compatibility would force people to play the newest version. Simply because activity on the original would die out (within weeks i suspect). Given that the new version is a good and stable release, ofcourse.

albert

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2009, 06:11:29 pm »
Ofcourse that doesn't make sense. It is the partial (optional) compatibility that is the whole problem!

And yes, i do think that dropping all compatibility would force people to play the newest version. Simply because activity on the original would die out (within weeks i suspect). Given that the new version is a good and stable release, ofcourse.

How would it make a difference to the people who uses LX56 and who want to play anyway only with other LX56 players (because of unbalances they somehow feel)?

I really don't see it as an disadvantage to have compatibility. I rather see it as an advantage (not only for gameplay, also for the code because it forces us to make it more clean). Not only that, it greatly also helps for debugging and such stuff. Because I cannot do any debugging if the version I am currently working on is not compatible to old versions.

pelya

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2009, 08:34:53 pm »
The roping feels different. In the recent betas, the ground friction is higher and thus you move slower than you would move using 0.56. It is difficult to explain it, Albert, you just have to download the older versions of this game and compare the psychics. As far as I remember, the change was especially sudden with beta5. But I might be wrong.

Soo, start up your LX56 with 100 FPS and Beta9, get a big map with long flat floor (Desktop v1 will do nicely), and walk from one side to another with a timer in your hand, and then post the damn rock solid numbers here instead of that crappy "feels different".
The same applies for jumping/roping/etc - find some way for us to tweak the numbers in the code correctly, so we can raise/lower ground friction/rope pull force by some factor - again, only real numbers allowed here, for example 1.2345 is real number and "make it faster, as it was in LX56" is not real number :P .

Edit: for your lexical nazis by "real number" I mean "da tru oldskool floating-point number, as defined in IEEE Standard 754", as opposed to the term "real number" used in math.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 08:44:17 pm by pelya »

albert

Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2009, 09:59:45 pm »
About ninja rope:

Here is the original code of LX56:
(l79) http://openlierox.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/openlierox/src/client/CNinjaRope.cpp?revision=1&view=markup&pathrev=1

This is the current code:
(l483) http://openlierox.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/openlierox/src/common/PhysicsLX56.cpp?view=markup

One difference I can see there is that OLX is more exact, esp. if the speed of the ninjarope is very fast.

Haven't looked roughly through it and don't see any difference. I'll perhaps look more in detail at it later if I have some time but I think there is no difference. Please also look yourself.

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2009, 07:01:54 pm »
Btw., in some recent changes, I changed the physical behaviour of OLX to be pretty much like LX56 (at least for projectiles).

It would be nice to get some response about that.

Rakkula

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2009, 07:36:39 pm »
I hope the physics are pretty much the same now...

I'm still going to sum up all the changes in physics I'm aware of (some have been mentioned before):
- wallshooting: in some versions you can shoot through walls of certain thickness and in others you can't. This'll lead to imbalance between versions: players prefer versions where you can't shoot through thick walls and still shoot "to" walls because others are still damaged by this
-ninja rope:Like miri said: there's less friction in the new versions. I noticed this the first time when I temporarily updated to beta 9 from beta 4.
-Damage calculations:The damage taken by players is calculated more efficiently in the newer versions. Therefore, the ones who use beta 9 are killed a lot faster that those using the older betas

I haven't noticed any difference in walk speed though, like some said.
         Frankly, I don't care if you say there should be no difference. There is a huge difference, whether you see it or not. You can't deduct that just by looking at the code or not getting any bug reports. Play and compare these versions in-game and you'll see the difference.

And I will tell you why competitive players don't update: in terms of competitive gaming, new versions suck! This is mainly due to reasons I've given above

« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 07:39:31 pm by Rakkula »
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Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2009, 08:07:19 pm »
Why is this thread even open.

You are not able to complain that OLX physics sucks because of the fact that there aren't any set physics in 0.56b. You don't need to sum anything up as there isn't anything to sum up, Savvy? Different FPS, different Physics!

Did you also know that you are able to become more or less invulnerable by limiting your FPS in 0.56b(not that you can't do it in OLX, damage should be calculated on the server, only not like the SSH flop)? Did you know that you can reduce your friction, allowing you to move faster, by limiting your FPS in 0.56b? Did you know that everyone has played by their own rules in 0.56b?


And I'll tell you why these "competitive" players won't update: In terms of competitive gaming, 0.56b is a joke! Opposed to the competitive side of OLX, which is merely funny.


Did you get it? Everyone has their own experience depending on their hardware.

Note: I'm referring to OLX and 0.56b physics, not to the different versions . The physics were fixed in OLX beta 5.
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albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2009, 08:12:19 pm »
Jupp, some good points by Benn0.

When I am speaking of LX56 physics, I mean LX56 with some particular fixed FPS. Right now, we try to have it like LX56 with 84 FPS (90 FPS was the default limit, so most users had this setting; and because of some internal issues, it was a bit lower; DC told me that 84 FPS was the most common FPS users had).

Captain Nack Sparrow

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2009, 08:14:15 pm »
Why is this thread even open.

You are not able to complain that OLX physics sucks because of the fact that there aren't any set physics in 0.56b. You don't need to sum anything up as there isn't anything to sum up, Savvy? Different FPS, different Physics!

Did you also know that you are able to become more or less invulnerable by limiting your FPS in 0.56b(not that you can't do it in OLX, damage should be calculated on the server, only not like the SSH flop)? Did you know that you can reduce your friction, allowing you to move faster, by limiting your FPS in 0.56b? Did you know that everyone has played by their own rules in 0.56b?


And I'll tell you why these "competitive" players won't update: In terms of competitive gaming, 0.56b is a joke! Opposed to the competitive side of OLX, which is merely funny.


Did you get it? Everyone has their own experience depending on their hardware.

Note: I'm referring to OLX and 0.56b physics, not to the different versions . The physics were fixed in OLX beta 5.


Sorry, I have been playing for ages. Since 0.56 came out. I got new computer last year and I could get 400FPS with OLX, but I am still using old LieroX (patch 2008), with max FPS set to 80 (is stable 77 now). The FPS flop might be good? Some like weaker rope, so they can stretch it and make more tricky moves, I prefer to move as fast as I can and I set a bit lower FPS.

Differences: 1) No matter what the code says, the rope is different.
2) You hurt yourself sooooo easily, no matter if you are host or player, while moving forward, Doomsday and cannon and chaingun tend to hit many times easier.
3) weapons hurt a bit different. Haven't noticed it much with others, but they do with mortars, and perhaps other mods too (hot potato gun flies different and so on).
nsg

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2009, 08:22:06 pm »

Differences: 1) No matter what the code says, the rope is different.
2) You hurt yourself sooooo easily, no matter if you are host or player, while moving forward, Doomsday and cannon and chaingun tend to hit many times easier.
3) weapons hurt a bit different. Haven't noticed it much with others, but they do with mortars, and perhaps other mods too (hot potato gun flies different and so on).


These differences are to what OLX version?

I was asking about the differences of latest SVN to fixed 86 FPS in LX56.

Captain Nack Sparrow

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2009, 09:00:49 pm »

Differences: 1) No matter what the code says, the rope is different.
2) You hurt yourself sooooo easily, no matter if you are host or player, while moving forward, Doomsday and cannon and chaingun tend to hit many times easier.
3) weapons hurt a bit different. Haven't noticed it much with others, but they do with mortars, and perhaps other mods too (hot potato gun flies different and so on).


These differences are to what OLX version?

I was asking about the differences of latest SVN to fixed 86 FPS in LX56.
I don't know if it's the latest SVN, but it was downloaded few days ago and the changelog said it was made 3 days ago then.

FPS in 0.56 is bit smaller, but it only makes difference to rope instead which makes it little stiffier. Why is rope strength so weak in OLX anyway?
nsg

Hatten

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2009, 09:24:07 pm »
Everyone knows the campspot in lamda, to the left. Of what i can recall, some versions could and some versions couldn't shoot through this wall. I have no clue how it is now, i don't have lx installed so i cannot test, but can people report if you can/cannot shoot through this wall/box, with what version and fps.
I don't do unintentionall mistakes.

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Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2009, 10:03:52 pm »
Why is this thread even open.

You are not able to complain that OLX physics sucks because of the fact that there aren't any set physics in 0.56b. You don't need to sum anything up as there isn't anything to sum up, Savvy? Different FPS, different Physics!

Did you also know that you are able to become more or less invulnerable by limiting your FPS in 0.56b(not that you can't do it in OLX, damage should be calculated on the server, only not like the SSH flop)? Did you know that you can reduce your friction, allowing you to move faster, by limiting your FPS in 0.56b? Did you know that everyone has played by their own rules in 0.56b?


And I'll tell you why these "competitive" players won't update: In terms of competitive gaming, 0.56b is a joke! Opposed to the competitive side of OLX, which is merely funny.


Did you get it? Everyone has their own experience depending on their hardware.

Note: I'm referring to OLX and 0.56b physics, not to the different versions . The physics were fixed in OLX beta 5.


Sorry, I have been playing for ages. Since 0.56 came out. I got new computer last year and I could get 400FPS with OLX, but I am still using old LieroX (patch 2008), with max FPS set to 80 (is stable 77 now). The FPS flop might be good? Some like weaker rope, so they can stretch it and make more tricky moves, I prefer to move as fast as I can and I set a bit lower FPS.

Differences: 1) No matter what the code says, the rope is different.
2) You hurt yourself sooooo easily, no matter if you are host or player, while moving forward, Doomsday and cannon and chaingun tend to hit many times easier.
3) weapons hurt a bit different. Haven't noticed it much with others, but they do with mortars, and perhaps other mods too (hot potato gun flies different and so on).
Sorry, March 2006...

What a coincidence, I've always had this idea that you should be able to choose if you want to fly, become invisible and hold the ball with your hands in football. The game would be so incredibly interesting. Oh, and don't forget that you should get an "I win"-button. Play Team Fortress 2 if you want to choose a class!

1) Different physics == Different rope, simple math. The game can't choose not to obey the code.
2) I can't imagine why you're even bringing it up in this context. It's a design fault that's been plaguing LieroX forever. You should naturally not be punished for moving in a certain direction without interference from another worm.
3) Wow, almost relevant. Have you tried firing it while standing still.
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Captain Nack Sparrow

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2009, 10:27:49 pm »
Why is this thread even open.

You are not able to complain that OLX physics sucks because of the fact that there aren't any set physics in 0.56b. You don't need to sum anything up as there isn't anything to sum up, Savvy? Different FPS, different Physics!

Did you also know that you are able to become more or less invulnerable by limiting your FPS in 0.56b(not that you can't do it in OLX, damage should be calculated on the server, only not like the SSH flop)? Did you know that you can reduce your friction, allowing you to move faster, by limiting your FPS in 0.56b? Did you know that everyone has played by their own rules in 0.56b?


And I'll tell you why these "competitive" players won't update: In terms of competitive gaming, 0.56b is a joke! Opposed to the competitive side of OLX, which is merely funny.


Did you get it? Everyone has their own experience depending on their hardware.

Note: I'm referring to OLX and 0.56b physics, not to the different versions . The physics were fixed in OLX beta 5.


Sorry, I have been playing for ages. Since 0.56 came out. I got new computer last year and I could get 400FPS with OLX, but I am still using old LieroX (patch 2008), with max FPS set to 80 (is stable 77 now). The FPS flop might be good? Some like weaker rope, so they can stretch it and make more tricky moves, I prefer to move as fast as I can and I set a bit lower FPS.

Differences: 1) No matter what the code says, the rope is different.
2) You hurt yourself sooooo easily, no matter if you are host or player, while moving forward, Doomsday and cannon and chaingun tend to hit many times easier.
3) weapons hurt a bit different. Haven't noticed it much with others, but they do with mortars, and perhaps other mods too (hot potato gun flies different and so on).
Sorry, March 2006...

What a coincidence, I've always had this idea that you should be able to choose if you want to fly, become invisible and hold the ball with your hands in football. The game would be so incredibly interesting. Oh, and don't forget that you should get an "I win"-button. Play Team Fortress 2 if you want to choose a class!

1) Different physics == Different rope, simple math. The game can't choose not to obey the code.
2) I can't imagine why you're even bringing it up in this context. It's a design fault that's been plaguing LieroX forever. You should naturally not be punished for moving in a certain direction without interference from another worm.
3) Wow, almost relevant. Have you tried firing it while standing still.

Anyway, look at you posting. If I like a bit stronger rope than OLX has to offer, what's wrong with it? It was possible with 0.56 or Patch 2008, matterless whether it was a code bug or not. It is just peoples preference. I know alot of mortar players take advantage of it against me, like the roof hanging and then stretching the rope to the other side of the level, I can stretch my rope half the screen or something. I just play mortars once a month maximum anyway, so I just prefer stronger FPS for classic game mode. How can you compare it to "Get win" button or using hands in football? That's radical, but having stronger rope is not radical. It's just the way it worked and I was reporting the difference. in OLX it's just that, if a player flies to me and I must wait for just a small moment longer until I am away from there and it is already annoying. I'd prefer to go with the rope just, OK? (take that, argue back to this babe).

2) You are missing the point here again. It's the difference between 2 of the versions, never OLX (beta 9 SVN or whatever) and older LXes. The difference is in it, and I could even make a video in the same servers about the differences if you really like. It is true that with OLX you do shoot yourself easier than with older LX.

3) That was a positive feedback I guess. Well no, I don't stand still. Yesterday me and Luffy were just dueling in food fight, and sometimes when his shots went through, it hit the corner of a wall in my screen and vice versa, and there was just a little argue about if a shot hit or not. Dumb to stand still, gonna get killed that way. :D

But Mortars too - few weeks ago or so, I had a few games against that -HP- clan, and it felt like I had to be shooting them hundred times. I neverminded it, until Namura brought it up, he complained about them not dieing. Then their excuse was just that if they use OLX and move with higher speed, they lose like 15% from one fill mortar shot, and with older LX I got instantly killed or lost at least 50%.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 04:53:32 pm by Nack. »
nsg

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Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2009, 11:04:57 pm »
The football example is a way of showing how a game shouldn't work. You can prefer but you shouldn't be able to alter the game in such manners. Change one thing and you might aswell give yourself an autowin button.

Yes, my comparison was between the old and new physics. And I don't think there should be any difference between beta < 4:s in that department. It might have something to do with altered collision detection, but it can' really be observed in an online game.

I'd also put the third issue in the netcode department. I haven't experienced anything like it, but I can't really say I'm voluntarily touching Food Fight or Modern Warfare. There are far easier ways to become invulnerable than to rely on a bug. It's is incredibly possible to take less than 50% damage from a mortar hit in 0.56b. Not to mention that the bug is present in 0.56b and there's always that incredibly clever netcode in the background.
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Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2009, 11:14:46 pm »
The football example is a way of showing how a game shouldn't work. You can prefer but you shouldn't be able to alter the game in such manners. Change one thing and you might aswell give yourself an autowin button.

Yes, my comparison was between the old and new physics. And I don't think there should be any difference between beta < 4:s in that department. It might have something to do with altered collision detection, but it can' really be observed in an online game.

I'd also put the third issue in the netcode department. I haven't experienced anything like it, but I can't really say I'm voluntarily touching Food Fight or Modern Warfare. There are far easier ways to become invulnerable than to rely on a bug. It's is incredibly possible to take less than 50% damage from a mortar hit in 0.56b. Not to mention that the bug is present in 0.56b and there's always that incredibly clever netcode in the background.
And who exactly kniws what is the right rope strength? It is set to pretty weak right now (like 100FPS or what was it for 0.56?), why wouldn't 78FPS rope strength be wrong. Maybe it is correct and weaker rope is cheat? JasonB put max FPS there for reason I think, and probably tested the game too and was aware that the max FPS is not exactly 90 when you put it 90.

Anyway those are the differences, I'm out now. Bye!
nsg

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2009, 11:32:32 pm »
I don't know if it's the latest SVN, but it was downloaded few days ago and the changelog said it was made 3 days ago then.

FPS in 0.56 is bit smaller, but it only makes difference to rope instead which makes it little stiffier. Why is rope strength so weak in OLX anyway?

So, if it was roughly 5-7 days ago, it's very probable that it didn't contained my last changes (which made it much more close to LX56) yet. Can you perhaps just retry to be sure?

Or open console, type "version" and checks if the revision (which should be printed along with the version) is older than the last SVN.

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2009, 11:34:24 pm »
Quote
You hurt yourself sooooo easily, no matter if you are host or player, while moving forward, Doomsday and cannon and chaingun tend to hit many times easier.

Wait, are you saying that hitting yourself was easier in LX56 or in OLX?
Edit: Ah, you mean OLX.

And also in latest SVN?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 11:41:10 pm by albert »

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2009, 11:35:18 pm »
Quote
weapons hurt a bit different. Haven't noticed it much with others, but they do with mortars, and perhaps other mods too (hot potato gun flies different and so on).

That really should not be the case anymore in latest SVN.

Captain Nack Sparrow

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2009, 11:38:29 pm »
Hey, try fitting all your text into one post, easier to read. :)
I will check it out tomorrow or something and make some video to explain maybe.
nsg

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2009, 11:45:17 pm »
Btw., I just saw that latest EXE is revision 4448. That one already contains most fixes which makes physics far more close to LX56 but with 100 FPS. In rev 4471, the change was made to simulate 84 FPS. So, if you want to have LX56 behaviour with 84 FPS, you have to get a more recent OLX version (ask DC or just compile yourself).

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2009, 02:54:36 pm »
Btw., I just saw that latest EXE is revision 4448. That one already contains most fixes which makes physics far more close to LX56 but with 100 FPS. In rev 4471, the change was made to simulate 84 FPS. So, if you want to have LX56 behaviour with 84 FPS, you have to get a more recent OLX version (ask DC or just compile yourself).

A new EXE is online already. Has anybody tried?

Sakmongkol

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2009, 03:53:55 pm »
A new EXE is online already. Has anybody tried?

I tried a new one yesterday, and I am almost certain that I receive more damage with that one than with previous beta9s. Unfortunately, I have no numbers to prove this with.

Otherwise it's nice, and I found it interesting that the skins change direction on the scoreboard according to which way the players are facing in game. But it is somewhat stupid that the skins stay that way in the lobby, so that some face left and some right. :P
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Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2009, 04:35:28 pm »
Hello!

I have to say, I feel the same with that beta 9. I know where it's physics come from, ( beta 2) but the thing is, especially napalm hits more. It is almost impossible to cope with other players, beta 1-2 players with this.  there is also another problem. I had to realise that the distance where weapon bullets appear from you when you press shoot button, that has become a lot less than it was previously. so its almost impossible to get so close to someone that his/her shots would come through on you.  Especially in 100lt, its ag reat skill, to trick your opponent with. now Im not sure if this smaller appearing distance causes that I cant shoot napalm through some thick walls ( for example on LFR on that one which is in the area where u can come up from the middle of the tunnels. ( there are boxes under it ).

While playing with rifles, even when I am hoster, I can suicide when I fly with a normal speed ahead and shoot. Or I can suicide easily if I aim up with rope and then shoot rifles up. So basicly the hoster's advantage is gone, while others still have some distance lag- so it means, its even harder to play as a hoster. Thats why It would be great to change it back. first just that distance.

And thats not an answer that it hasnt been changed. if its once different, then we should modify it together.

I am happy to announce that though, with this fixed FPS based beta 2 phsyiscs playing with beta 9 is an awesome thing. so basicly that problem is fixed, hopefully "forever".


PS:

there are problems with the FPS stability as well. It goes down really easily, so many mods and their weapon's cant be playd normally anymore.  even MSF II spikes because of it at times.

Ahmed has 35 to 60 FPS with the latest beta 9 versions, while he has a good pc, and had no FPs issues with any other earlier versions. so there is something which is definitely not okay yet.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 04:38:32 pm by *Gyogyi* »
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albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2009, 11:24:55 pm »
A new EXE is online already. Has anybody tried?

I tried a new one yesterday, and I am almost certain that I receive more damage with that one than with previous beta9s. Unfortunately, I have no numbers to prove this with.

Otherwise it's nice, and I found it interesting that the skins change direction on the scoreboard according to which way the players are facing in game. But it is somewhat stupid that the skins stay that way in the lobby, so that some face left and some right. :P

Please don't compare to other unofficial pre-Beta9s. Either compare to Beta8/Beta5 or to Beta1/LX56 (I am assuming here that Beta1 is the same as LX56 and Beta8/Beta7/Beta6/Beta5 is also all the same).

So, is it different to Beta1? If so, please fill in a bug report and compare some specific weapons and give an example where we can easily see that.

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2009, 11:35:27 pm »
Hello!

I have to say, I feel the same with that beta 9. I know where it's physics come from, ( beta 2) but the thing is, especially napalm hits more. It is almost impossible to cope with other players, beta 1-2 players with this.  there is also another problem. I had to realise that the distance where weapon bullets appear from you when you press shoot button, that has become a lot less than it was previously. so its almost impossible to get so close to someone that his/her shots would come through on you.  Especially in 100lt, its ag reat skill, to trick your opponent with. now Im not sure if this smaller appearing distance causes that I cant shoot napalm through some thick walls ( for example on LFR on that one which is in the area where u can come up from the middle of the tunnels. ( there are boxes under it ).

While playing with rifles, even when I am hoster, I can suicide when I fly with a normal speed ahead and shoot. Or I can suicide easily if I aim up with rope and then shoot rifles up. So basicly the hoster's advantage is gone, while others still have some distance lag- so it means, its even harder to play as a hoster. Thats why It would be great to change it back. first just that distance.

And thats not an answer that it hasnt been changed. if its once different, then we should modify it together.

I am happy to announce that though, with this fixed FPS based beta 2 phsyiscs playing with beta 9 is an awesome thing. so basicly that problem is fixed, hopefully "forever".


PS:

there are problems with the FPS stability as well. It goes down really easily, so many mods and their weapon's cant be playd normally anymore.  even MSF II spikes because of it at times.

Ahmed has 35 to 60 FPS with the latest beta 9 versions, while he has a good pc, and had no FPs issues with any other earlier versions. so there is something which is definitely not okay yet.

Are you comparing this SVN version to Beta1 here (or what does "hits more" mean)? Please fill in a bug report about that (and say also which SVN revision that was).

Please also fill in a bug report about the different (lower) distance, and again, say which SVN revision and which other version you are comparing too (best would be Beta1). With LFR you mean Liero Factory Revisited? Please also state that example there.

The behaviour with rifles is different from what? Please fill in a bug report about that.

Which SVN revisions has Ahmed tried because of performance issues? Please fill in a bug about that. Also state what FPS he had before (and in what versions).

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2009, 11:36:12 pm »
Btw, you haven't gave any note about the rope anymore. Is that fixed now? If not, please fill in a bug report about that.

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Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2009, 12:16:52 am »
Hello!

I have to say, I feel the same with that beta 9. I know where it's physics come from, ( beta 2) but the thing is, especially napalm hits more. It is almost impossible to cope with other players, beta 1-2 players with this.  there is also another problem. I had to realise that the distance where weapon bullets appear from you when you press shoot button, that has become a lot less than it was previously. so its almost impossible to get so close to someone that his/her shots would come through on you.  Especially in 100lt, its ag reat skill, to trick your opponent with. now Im not sure if this smaller appearing distance causes that I cant shoot napalm through some thick walls ( for example on LFR on that one which is in the area where u can come up from the middle of the tunnels. ( there are boxes under it ).

While playing with rifles, even when I am hoster, I can suicide when I fly with a normal speed ahead and shoot. Or I can suicide easily if I aim up with rope and then shoot rifles up. So basicly the hoster's advantage is gone, while others still have some distance lag- so it means, its even harder to play as a hoster. Thats why It would be great to change it back. first just that distance.

And thats not an answer that it hasnt been changed. if its once different, then we should modify it together.

I am happy to announce that though, with this fixed FPS based beta 2 phsyiscs playing with beta 9 is an awesome thing. so basicly that problem is fixed, hopefully "forever".
The hoster advantage is gone? excuse me?

Well, I wouldn't call your ideas all that bad. It's basically taking one step ahead and one step back, except that you wasn't the one who took the first step. I guess it never occured  to you that it's actually possible to do something about JasonB's totally idiotic design choices. The whole thing about pointing the gun at yourself while advancing should never have been in the game at the first place.

The bullets appearing two miles ahead of worms isn't something that should be in the game either. It's probably merely a way to do something about worms killing themselves more than their opponents. You can argue about the wallshooting, but to no end. A simple solution is to alter maps abit. Or why not stop playing Liero Factory in favour of maps that actually are designed for LieroX.

I don't know how it's possible to actually "Fix" the physics.


What are your plans? direction? What do you want your game to be? Do you want it to become more popular?

I seriously don't think it will become more popular even if you rename the game and make it fancier. It's the whole gameplay that's, well kinda dull and lack in almost every department except the roping. An thought that occured to me recently is that LieroX is kind of an hybrid between a fighter and a shooter. It's not necessarily a bad thing if done properly, but the amount of players speaks for itself as it's totally free game (there are poorly translated and buggy Chinese grinders with more players than LieroX). The foremost problem, as I've stated before, in LieroX/OLX is the nonexistant balance between weapons and mobility. You should simply not be able to move faster than bullets. Not far behind is the risk/reward balance, which is the cause to the "omg runner!!!!!"-whining. You should be able to play competitively without the game being totally lame!

Comparing LieroX to, well, any semi-popular shooter results in LieroX being the slowest. The current reload times doesn't even look good on paper. There's no logic in having a timer between when you can shoot or not. Turning the game into a runfest as it's exactly that kind of gameplay which it rewards. There are far too many weapons and take far too much time to actually reload them. Yes, extreme reload times could actually work if you ran any risk of getting shot when you're without weapons. And reloading one weapon is not going to be enough to kill someone, which results in even more waiting. I'd at the very least alter the reload times so that every weapon recharges continuously to a certain limit.

Another thing that would spice up the gameplay are ways to actually directly influence how opponents moves with physics. Yes, it is possible to influence your opponents movements by "tricking" them, but no real risk for either part. Yes, you can shoot them! And then what?

I'd sure as hell want my opponents to tumble through the air when I hit them with a rocket launcher, or be able to hit someone into a corner just to fire a napalm straight after.
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Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2009, 01:02:42 am »
Please don't compare to other unofficial pre-Beta9s. Either compare to Beta8/Beta5 or to Beta1/LX56 (I am assuming here that Beta1 is the same as LX56 and Beta8/Beta7/Beta6/Beta5 is also all the same).
Well, if the game's behavior keeps changing between beta9s, I find it rather suspicious as I thought the physics were already somewhat 'fixed'. I think it means you are changing something you might not even be aware of or fully understand. I think this gives me a perfect right to note this difference between beta9s

So, is it different to Beta1?
Well quite obviously, isn't that how it was supposed to be?

If so, please fill in a bug report
You have a bug report here.

and compare some specific weapons and give an example where we can easily see that.
Gyogyi gave some examples there. But one weapon I could mention, is chaingun. A lot of times, I receive around 50 damage or more from a chaingun shower that would've never done such damage in other versions. This is hard to test, because standing still the damage is (I believe) quite much the same always. But when you're flying through such a shower in the air, it feels as if the game had just ignored the damage from some bullets in previous versions, whereas now the damage calculation is more exact, or even too exact as it gives you a big disadvantage. Again, I'm only saying it feels like this, as I don't know how a reproducible research on the subject should be carried out.
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albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2009, 01:34:11 am »
Please don't compare to other unofficial pre-Beta9s. Either compare to Beta8/Beta5 or to Beta1/LX56 (I am assuming here that Beta1 is the same as LX56 and Beta8/Beta7/Beta6/Beta5 is also all the same).
Well, if the game's behavior keeps changing between beta9s, I find it rather suspicious as I thought the physics were already somewhat 'fixed'. I think it means you are changing something you might not even be aware of or fully understand. I think this gives me a perfect right to note this difference between beta9s

I told you, that I did an important change in physics, so of course it has changed if I make a change, that was the whole point of doing a change. And if you are saying me, that after I was doing the change in physics, the physics has changed, I am wondering why you are saying that.

This thread is about differences in physics between current development version and LX56. We are trying to make the behavior more close to LX56. The starting point was Beta8, which was (as you said) different than LX56. So, to be more close to LX56, of course we need to change the behavior of the current SVN. And then, if current SVN is still not good, we again have to change the behavior. That's what I did. And of course, it should be different then because my code change wouldn't have made sense otherwise.

So, is it different to Beta1?
Well quite obviously, isn't that how it was supposed to be?

The whole thread here is about to make the physics closer to LX56. So, if it is different, it of course was not supposed to be different. It was supposed to be equal to Beta1 (LX56).

If so, please fill in a bug report
You have a bug report here.

That doesn't help at all. To much different things are said here. I need clear and separated bug reports where we could keep track of each issue on its own. I even don't know about how much separated issues we are speaking about (and which of them are solved now and which not and which new issues have come up...) because it is too unclear here. And I don't want to read all again and again to sort out all the different issues. That is what a bug tracker is all about. To keep track about different bugs. If I change something in code, each single report can be tested again and we can see in each single report if the problem was solved or not. It's way too complicated to do that here and we would just get lost of forgot about old stuff. Why do you want to make the work for us so hard? I really don't get that...

The very important thing is, that we have *seperated* bug reports. It doesn't really help to have a post with a bunch of things said in it and I have to filter them out and break the post into its peaces by my own. For example, the rope would be one issue. Performance issues which were said in a PS is another report. Different rifle behaviour is again another report. And so on...

and compare some specific weapons and give an example where we can easily see that.
Gyogyi gave some examples there. But one weapon I could mention, is chaingun. A lot of times, I receive around 50 damage or more from a chaingun shower that would've never done such damage in other versions. This is hard to test, because standing still the damage is (I believe) quite much the same always. But when you're flying through such a shower in the air, it feels as if the game had just ignored the damage from some bullets in previous versions, whereas now the damage calculation is more exact, or even too exact as it gives you a big disadvantage. Again, I'm only saying it feels like this, as I don't know how a reproducible research on the subject should be carried out.

What older versions here? If it is different to LX56/Beta1, please fill in a bug report about that.

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2009, 01:43:15 am »
Btw., I splitted two posts from here, which are more about future plans of OLX. Look here:
http://lxalliance.net/forum/index.php/topic,12395.msg188114/topicseen.html#new

This thread here is about differences from current SVN to LX56.

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Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2009, 02:40:22 am »
Hello!

I cant send bug reports to you from my pc. that error window just says its not able to send it.

Anyway when its about understanding my thoughts about the game, Feel free to ask Karel about them. He has the ingame experience to understand everything I say. Perhaps send him my message on msn, he will tell you what to fix, and how :)

To benno: your message has proven again the fact that you have never played with liero competitive.  Have you even tested the version?  Im sure you have no clue what Im talking about. But those are NOT bugs in the game. They make playing more wiser.

and about that hosting thing. Till distance lag exsists in any way it is need to be kept. The game is fair absolutely with its current features. Why to make differences in that.



oh and Albert I always compare this beta 9 with beta 1. I was never ever comparing it to other betas.


and the version which I used was the 4454 one!

Perhaps its better if you give me your msn in a PM. Its a lot easier to talk about the game then. :) and no contradictions and other mess.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 02:47:15 am by *Gyogyi* »
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albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2009, 02:59:40 am »
With making bug reports, I meant to just fill in a new entry on this page:
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=180059&atid=891648

Click on "Add new" and then describe the bug. Be as precise as possible. And seperate different bugs. Don't speak about multiple bugs in one report. Make multiple reports for each bug.

Just as easy. :)

(Btw., it would be better if you register at SF or if you login there with any OpenID account (for example Facebook), because then you would get a mail if I add a comment or a question to that bug report. Most likely, we will do some changes then and try to fix the specific bug and then ask there, if the bug is gone away. But you don't have to, you can also just post it anonymously.)

Captain Nack Sparrow

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2009, 11:31:22 am »
Yesterday I tried OLX and I just died from 2 doomsdays, one napalm flame (usually 15%) took 75% or full life every time and so on.

Also - I can't join servers very well, it like freezes if I go to lobby, I can't say anything (nothing appears in the chatbox), and it doesn't even reload players list sometimes and chatbox, just shows background and everything without players and chatbox messages.

Sometimes it connects and then gets frozen again after few seconds, not sure how many.

And OpenGL mod is totally different compared to gameplay without it. I mean physics with OpenGL and without.
Damage calculations are really wrong, in 2 life game I had 2000 damage (I guess it's consequent to first bug).

Server lags too, It might be network settings, but before hosting it said I should be able to host for 11 with current network settings, and my net speed is good enough for that too, but it lagged big with 3 other players besides me. (Even with 2 I think?).
With old LieroX I am able to host for 8.
nsg

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2009, 03:38:28 pm »
Quote
Yesterday I tried OLX and I just died from 2 doomsdays, one napalm flame (usually 15%) took 75% or full life every time and so on.

Can you open a bug report about that?

Edit: Btw., there is a damagefactor in Beta9 and you can have different damages by worms. Have you perhaps accidently set this?

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Also - I can't join servers very well, it like freezes if I go to lobby, I can't say anything (nothing appears in the chatbox), and it doesn't even reload players list sometimes and chatbox, just shows background and everything without players and chatbox messages.

What revision was that exactly? And what server? Can you open a bug report about that?

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And OpenGL mod is totally different compared to gameplay without it. I mean physics with OpenGL and without.

Physics are absolutly the same, there cannot be a difference. The feeling of course can be different, in case the game runs very bad with/without OpenGL. Did you see changes in FPS? Was it better with or without?

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Server lags too, It might be network settings, but before hosting it said I should be able to host for 11 with current network settings, and my net speed is good enough for that too, but it lagged big with 3 other players besides me. (Even with 2 I think?).
With old LieroX I am able to host for 8.

If it said you can host for 11 people, your network settings seem correct (at least not too low). The other people, what OLX/LX version did they use? You were the hoster? Where were the other people from? What was their ping? Can you open a bug report about that?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 03:43:42 pm by albert »

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Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2009, 03:39:56 pm »
albert- I receive that message- and its updates- Im registered on SF

my email is kicsidzsi1@freemail.hu

And about the problem Nack is talking about(joining to servers causes freeze)- I havent felt it in 4454 version,  gonna test the other one today.
-
create your own brute here: http://kicsidzsiii.mybrute.com  (by this u also help me:)

albert

Re: Differences in physics between different versions
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2009, 06:54:58 pm »
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Yesterday I tried OLX and I just died from 2 doomsdays, one napalm flame (usually 15%) took 75% or full life every time and so on.

Ok, I found that bug, should be fixed.

Please make bug reports about the other things, to keep track about them. Still no single report was made. You just have to click on this link and type in some text...
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