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Modern Warfare1.0 – 20lt
IP: 37.205.11.54
Game Mode: Death Match
Lives: 0
Max Kills: 15
Version: OpenLieroX 0.58 rc3

Players:

Cruel v0.96 – 50lt
IP: 69.255.183.244
Game Mode: Death Match
Lives: 5
Max Kills: 0
Version: OpenLieroX 0.58 rc3

Players:
iRod(0 lives, 0 kills)
[CPU]I'm Not A Human(4 lives, 0 kills)
[CPU]I'm Not A Human(5 lives, 0 kills)

Liero v1.0 – 100lt
IP: 91.156.42.210
Game Mode: Death Match
Lives: 5
Max Kills: 20
Version: OpenLieroX 0.58 rc3

Players:
YourSecretGayLover(1 lives, 6 kills)
bairon(0 lives, 4 kills)
DalekZ(2 lives, 1 kills)
Thengil(0 lives, 0 kills)
angry (0 lives, 0 kills)

[albert]

Everyone seems to be so excited about this, that they want to get OLX on consoles, but I think if they'd actually play it 1-2 times, that would be it. It is no better than a computer to play LieroX. I can't say I'm sure, but at least this is what I see would happen. People would try it out few times and see that it is not better.

Of course, except that you would play with a gamepad, there is no difference in the game itself (and why should there, I thought you like the game as it is).

The advantage is, that you normally don't have a computer in your living room and the TV screen is often bigger than a computer screen. Another advantage is, that you would not have to start the computer (it's sometimes nice to let it behind) - and most often, a console is also more quiet than a PC. Also in my case, I don't know any room here were 4 people would have a good seat in front of one of the PCs here. Only for my living room with the TV, there is enough place and a nice couch to sit.

Perhaps for all the people who don't know the sense of a console, they have it in another way. Or perhaps some are using the PC *as* as console (why not, a PC is much more powerful and more possibilities). For example, I have a PC next to my TV. Atm. I use it only to watch movies (it's connected to the LAN here and can access all movies on my server), but I thought of buying some gamepads once to play also games there.

Even if you add a bigger resolution, then in TV's there is max resolution too. So 4-screen couldn't be with that high resolution. Especially if you are having older and smaller TV.

Yeah, if you have only a really small TV, 4 viewports does not fit very good on it. But there are also people with bigger TVs - I even think most people would have a bigger TV than the computer screen.

If that is not the case, think a bit with your own argumentation: You could use the computer *as* your TV (just by a TV-card, they are very cheap). And if you find this is not a good idea, why is this so?

[Benn0]

If that is not the case, think a bit with your own argumentation: You could use the computer *as* your TV (just by a TV-card, they are very cheap). And if you find this is not a good idea, why is this so?

Because every TV-card on this market is bad and thus expensive.

And why split screen, the most annoying solution for a multiplayer shooters ever? Are you going it try to make it into a party game, at this stage?

Which other solution would you suggest on a single screen? (To get some other screens+computers into the living room is not really an option here, it's not about LAN-party, it's when you have some friends at your place and you want to play Liero together.)

Yes, split screen is the only solution, but it doesn't change the fact that it's annoying.

Partygames are games that are easy to pick up, fun to sit by and watch, more or less visually impressive and work on a single screen. E.g. music based games, fighting games, racing games, minigames and occasional single player games like Assassin's Creed or the Devil May Cry series. Shooters are generally left out because they aren't easy to pick up, aren't that interesting to watch if you're not into it and doesn't work on a single screen. Not to mention that OLX isn't beautiful.

On top of that OLX would also suffer incredibly much from that guy.

[albert]

If that is not the case, think a bit with your own argumentation: You could use the computer *as* your TV (just by a TV-card, they are very cheap). And if you find this is not a good idea, why is this so?

Because every TV-card on this market is bad and thus expensive.

Uh? Which have you tried? Most of them should give you much better quality than any TV. But this is going OT now...

[albert]

And why split screen, the most annoying solution for a multiplayer shooters ever? Are you going it try to make it into a party game, at this stage?

Which other solution would you suggest on a single screen? (To get some other screens+computers into the living room is not really an option here, it's not about LAN-party, it's when you have some friends at your place and you want to play Liero together.)

Yes, split screen is the only solution, but it doesn't change the fact that it's annoying.

But why is it annoying to you? Of course, if the screen is small, it's annoying. But that makes a split screen not bad in general. People who would play this would probably also have a big enough screen or would else only play with 2 players at the same time.

The same argumentation would lead that you would not want to play Liero on a 5" screen. That is understandable, but makes Liero not bad.

Partygames are games that are easy to pick up, fun to sit by and watch, more or less visually impressive and work on a single screen. E.g. music based games, fighting games, racing games, minigames and occasional single player games like Assassin's Creed or the Devil May Cry series. Shooters are generally left out because they aren't easy to pick up, aren't that interesting to watch if you're not into it and doesn't work on a single screen. Not to mention that OLX isn't beautiful.

Hm, don't you think that OLX would have the potential to be a partygame? It's funny, easy to pick up, small and fast.

[Benn0]

19"/4<5"

Anyway, the size doesn't bother me unless it's extremely small. What is annoying is that you'll(or at least I) end up playing as much from your opponents screen as you do from your own, reducing the ability to do anything unexpected from not-very-much to nothing. It's, just dull.


Potential - yes, but it would require some changes to please me.

most people have some problems with the gameplay first because it's different from most other games. But after a while, you get used to it and you will see, it's a lot of fun. And the gameplay just belongs to Liero.

I couldn't say it better myself.

If that is not the case, think a bit with your own argumentation: You could use the computer *as* your TV (just by a TV-card, they are very cheap). And if you find this is not a good idea, why is this so?

Because every TV-card on this market is bad and thus expensive.

Uh? Which have you tried? Most of them should give you much better quality than any TV. But this is going OT now...

Whatever.

My dad did try one some year ago but I don't remember which it was, can't find it . Anyway, I just asked my father about it and the malfunction didn't have anything to do with the card itself, but the weak signal from the antenna.

Seems like they do work, yay!

[pelya]

One suggestion about split-screen: when two players are close enough to each other, we may join the two viewports in one big viewport.

[albert]

19"/4<5"

Anyway, the size doesn't bother me unless it's extremely small. What is annoying is that you'll(or at least I) end up playing as much from your opponents screen as you do from your own, reducing the ability to do anything unexpected from not-very-much to nothing. It's, just dull.

Oh, you mean it gives advantages to you if you can see directly what the enemy is doing? I have never thought of this.

Of course, the enemy has the same advantage as you then, but you are right, it wouldn't make that much fun anymore if you just looks on the other viewport all the time.

But, are you really sure that would happen? Is Liero a game where this would give you advantages? In a shooter game, where camping/hiding is important, it's of course an advantage if you know exactly where the enemy is. But I think in Liero, you should not camp anyway.

Btw., in an online game, everybody could already get this advantage easily (if it is an advantage...). You can just enable a second viewport and select the enemy, then you would see yourself on the left side and the enemy on the right. Everybody could do this. But is anybody really doing this?

[albert]

One suggestion about split-screen: when two players are close enough to each other, we may join the two viewports in one big viewport.

This is already so. In levels which fit completely on the screen without scrolling, there is only one single viewport. Then you don't need any splits.

Or do you mean, that OLX should dynamically add/remove viewports, dynamically split screen when needed? I could imagine this is annoying...

[pelya]

One suggestion about split-screen: when two players are close enough to each other, we may join the two viewports in one big viewport.

Or do you mean, that OLX should dynamically add/remove viewports, dynamically split screen when needed? I could imagine this is annoying...

Yup, like that, though the profit from such feature will be really small. Plus we should slowly move worm to the edge of his viewport when two worms are moving closer to each other, so joining two split screens will be seamless for the eyes. Though it will work only if they are in horizontal position - if one worm is above the other one we should first move screen splitter line from vertical position to horizontal one, and only then remove it.

[albert]

Potential - yes, but it would require some changes to please me.

Which changes? Only about the control or something else? (Not talking about split screen here.)

most people have some problems with the gameplay first because it's different from most other games. But after a while, you get used to it and you will see, it's a lot of fun. And the gameplay just belongs to Liero.

I couldn't say it better myself.

Yes, that's true that they have problems. But they are still able to play somehow. It doesn't make much fun for them to play against anybody who is already more used to it but if it is new to everybody (or at least most of the people), this does not matter that much.

I remember the time when I played Liero for the first time. It was in school when we were searching for some small computer games (because the lesson was so boring...). We found the original Liero and downloaded it. Noone of us had played it before (but everybody knew Worms and Liero looked funny). We were so bad and slow, had problems with the right keys and had to discover the huge amount of different weapons and try them out what they do. And to use the ninja rope was also difficult for us.

Btw., original Liero was only possible in split screen. Though it had success.

[Tafka]

One suggestion about split-screen: when two players are close enough to each other, we may join the two viewports in one big viewport.

This is already so. In levels which fit completely on the screen without scrolling, there is only one single viewport. Then you don't need any splits.

Or do you mean, that OLX should dynamically add/remove viewports, dynamically split screen when needed? I could imagine this is annoying...

Yes, it would be annoying indeed. Moving is so fast in LieroX, and if someone would quickly pass you with a rope, it would go one screen for half a second, and split screen then again. Not even thinkable.

Everyone seems to be so excited about this, that they want to get OLX on consoles, but I think if they'd actually play it 1-2 times, that would be it. It is no better than a computer to play LieroX. I can't say I'm sure, but at least this is what I see would happen. People would try it out few times and see that it is not better.

Of course, except that you would play with a gamepad, there is no difference in the game itself (and why should there, I thought you like the game as it is).

The advantage is, that you normally don't have a computer in your living room and the TV screen is often bigger than a computer screen. Another advantage is, that you would not have to start the computer (it's sometimes nice to let it behind) - and most often, a console is also more quiet than a PC. Also in my case, I don't know any room here were 4 people would have a good seat in front of one of the PCs here. Only for my living room with the TV, there is enough place and a nice couch to sit.

Perhaps for all the people who don't know the sense of a console, they have it in another way. Or perhaps some are using the PC *as* as console (why not, a PC is much more powerful and more possibilities). For example, I have a PC next to my TV. Atm. I use it only to watch movies (it's connected to the LAN here and can access all movies on my server), but I thought of buying some gamepads once to play also games there.

Even if you add a bigger resolution, then in TV's there is max resolution too. So 4-screen couldn't be with that high resolution. Especially if you are having older and smaller TV.

Yeah, if you have only a really small TV, 4 viewports does not fit very good on it. But there are also people with bigger TVs - I even think most people would have a bigger TV than the computer screen.

If that is not the case, think a bit with your own argumentation: You could use the computer *as* your TV (just by a TV-card, they are very cheap). And if you find this is not a good idea, why is this so?

I don't have so small TV, but also my monitor is quite big. Monitor is 20.1" I think, and TV is 26". The thing is that you would watch TV from bigger distance too, than computer. Or at least we have couch about 4 metres away from TV, while computer monitor is just about 1m from my view.

What you were speaking about: watching other's screen. Well, one thing would be that you would see other ppl's health and what weapon they are using, just for one.
For two, it would disturb if there are 3 cameras moving around you, with your own camera. I used to play playstation one rally-games and superbike-game and some other games with few of my best friends, about 5-10 years ago. The thing was that it still caught my eye all the time.

If there are 4 cameras, thinking about it, it's even more annoying.

Another thing is that if let's say you are more experienced in LieroX, then it wouldn't even be fun, if your friends just came by and are total noobs. I understand 2 noobs ripping on the roof and spamming each other randomly, but 4 players wouldn't be fun. I sometimes let unknown newbies to play in my server, when I host, and it is quite boring to kill them. Rarely it gives me any fun.

[nihil abyssyncyst]

ok, if you have never been to anyones house to play halo with a group, please dont say an action game with split screen is unfeasible or undesirable, you have the opposite opinion to people who have done it. everyone that likes games to start with has a blast doing this, despite the problems from smaller screen or seeing others health/weapon or position. seeing position is a ridiculous complaint on liero, both for the reason mentioned that you shouldnt be camping, and for the reason that there is already a damn in game map. (i have got sniper shots just from across section19a just by glancing at the map then making a guess at aim, and i know other people can do this too). this is not a game where you disappear every time you go behind a corner!

how hard are the liero controls? except for dig and ninja rope, they are all pretty intuitive and only take getting used to. people who have some game experience should be able to move around, jump, shoot, and use the rope their first time (if the instructions to use the rope are visible before play and during by use of f1 or select button), then improve over the next several games and gradually approach their potential thereafter. different buttons for rope, dig could be assigned for those on a game pad for people who want. a solution to dig that a friend of mine uses when he has a directional pad that you cant push left and right at the same time on, is he doubly assigns l and r keys to left and right, then uses those when he needs to dig. maybe this could be made easier, simply have l be dig left, r be dig right?

do you think you would only play the game once with a group of friends, though you like the game enough to read this forum regularly? maybe you dont hang out with real life friends very much, or dont have more than one nerd in your town, and hence are greatly malestimating the likelihood of others playing a game with friends more than once. smash brothers and halo are games that come to mind, that are similar to liero in that someone playing them for their first time is not that good, gets totally wasted by the experienced players, but can still kind of get around and have fun during rounds. i totally have had parties where there are some experienced players, some medium, and some first time, and it is a good time for everyone. with multiple tvs and consoles (usually acquired by two friends with console + 4 controllers conspiring to party), you can even have 8 or more players in one room, maybe set two tvs on either side, and run either death matches or team games segregated by side of room. if you dont like only fighting noobs at a party like this, invite at least one other experienced player, so you can have grand battles with each other while the starters learn the ropes.

[albert]

Perhaps we could make a small tutorial level like in some action shooters. Where you have to walk a bit around first, then carve through something and then use the rope. At each step, a message shows up and informs also about your current control setting ("press RCtrl to jump now"). After that, you perhaps have some predefined weapons and you have to kill a bot (which is made very dump and only walking from one point to another without doing anything).

Btw., for digging: We already implemented a solution for joystick-like gamepads, this was discussed already earlier (and is already there in Beta5; feel free to test it). You have switch fast between going forward and stopping, then you will carve. It's in a way similar to current carving. We thought also about a carve-key, but we came to the conclusion that this would give unfair advantages.

[Tafka]

do you think you would only play the game once with a group of friends, though you like the game enough to read this forum regularly? maybe you dont hang out with real life friends very much, or dont have more than one nerd in your town, and hence are greatly malestimating the likelihood of others playing a game with friends more than once. smash brothers and halo are games that come to mind, that are similar to liero in that someone playing them for their first time is not that good, gets totally wasted by the experienced players, but can still kind of get around and have fun during rounds. i totally have had parties where there are some experienced players, some medium, and some first time, and it is a good time for everyone. with multiple tvs and consoles (usually acquired by two friends with console + 4 controllers conspiring to party), you can even have 8 or more players in one room, maybe set two tvs on either side, and run either death matches or team games segregated by side of room. if you dont like only fighting noobs at a party like this, invite at least one other experienced player, so you can have grand battles with each other while the starters learn the ropes.

Please, why do you assume? If I don't like playing OLX in 4-screen then I don't have any life, I only have one friend who is a geek, and so on? No!!

I just can imagine OLX to be on 4-screen in a TV, and I just imagine it all in my head, you know. We're not talking about Halo or Smash Bros here, we're talking about Open LieroXtreme. And as much as I've played this game, my thought still is that it wouldn't be fun.

[Magni]

ok, if you have never been to anyones house to play halo with a group, please dont say an action game with split screen is unfeasible or undesirable, you have the opposite opinion to people who have done it. everyone that likes games to start with has a blast doing this, despite the problems from smaller screen or seeing others health/weapon or position. seeing position is a ridiculous complaint on liero, both for the reason mentioned that you shouldnt be camping, and for the reason that there is already a damn in game map. (i have got sniper shots just from across section19a just by glancing at the map then making a guess at aim, and i know other people can do this too). this is not a game where you disappear every time you go behind a corner!

Everyone? Did you ask every single gamer on the planet? Everyone might not like a party like that, just because you and your friends happen to like one.  And you could as well tell us that you won 50 millions on the lottery, as luck is the only thing you need to hit someone on the other side of the map. I could beat Jonathan Wendel in UT2k4 by getting headshot after headshot after headshot.

how hard are the liero controls? except for dig and ninja rope, they are all pretty intuitive and only take getting used to. people who have some game experience should be able to move around, jump, shoot, and use the rope their first time (if the instructions to use the rope are visible before play and during by use of f1 or select button), then improve over the next several games and gradually approach their potential thereafter. different buttons for rope, dig could be assigned for those on a game pad for people who want. a solution to dig that a friend of mine uses when he has a directional pad that you cant push left and right at the same time on, is he doubly assigns l and r keys to left and right, then uses those when he needs to dig. maybe this could be made easier, simply have l be dig left, r be dig right?

No a new player will most likely not be able to move, rope, reload, aim and shoot at the same time, which leads to a extremely slow game, which isn't very fun to watch nor to play against.

do you think you would only play the game once with a group of friends, though you like the game enough to read this forum regularly? maybe you dont hang out with real life friends very much, or dont have more than one nerd in your town, and hence are greatly malestimating the likelihood of others playing a game with friends more than once.

I can't put this better than Tafka

Please, why do you assume? If I don't like playing OLX in 4-screen then I don't have any life, I only have one friend who is a geek, and so on? No!!

smash brothers and halo are games that come to mind, that are similar to liero in that someone playing them for their first time is not that good, gets totally wasted by the experienced players, but can still kind of get around and have fun during rounds. i totally have had parties where there are some experienced players, some medium, and some first time, and it is a good time for everyone. with multiple tvs and consoles (usually acquired by two friends with console + 4 controllers conspiring to party), you can even have 8 or more players in one room, maybe set two tvs on either side, and run either death matches or team games segregated by side of room. if you dont like only fighting noobs at a party like this, invite at least one other experienced player, so you can have grand battles with each other while the starters learn the ropes.

That is completely not true. I could kill a newbie in Smash without him being able to do a thing. It wouldn't be very entertaining from the newbies point of view. But, I could play Smash less seriously and still have fun, plus the other guy wouldn't get killed in 5 seconds. Now try the same thing in liero. The newbie would find it boring because he's not able to move properly and the skilled player will be bored either due to lack of challange or due to lack of things to do if he tries to play at the newbies level.

All in all, who would play LX at a party when there are FAR better games designed for this purpose.

[Benn0]

Potential - yes, but it would require some changes to please me.

Which changes? Only about the control or something else? (Not talking about split screen here.)

Change the reload system so that new ammo is generated whenever your clip is below 100%. It doesn't increase the theoretical damage output that much and removes some of the urge to run away while reloading. The second change would be to alter the maximum movingspeed so that you can't move faster than most projectiles or possibly slow down the movingspeed all together, not much but still enough to make it easier.


Speaking of party shooters, there is actually one that works incredibly with people despite their difference in skill, namely Goldeneye. Not only is it incredibly fun to watch the characters slide 20 meters across the floor after being shot, but it also has this wonderful autoaim (default). I doesn't pull of any headshots but anyone with a pair of hands is able to point the gun somewhat in the direction of where his/her friends character is.

[albert]

But, I could play Smash less seriously and still have fun, plus the other guy wouldn't get killed in 5 seconds.

And you cannot play Liero less seriously?

[albert]

Speaking of party shooters, there is actually one that works incredibly with people despite their difference in skill, namely Goldeneye. Not only is it incredibly fun to watch the characters slide 20 meters across the floor after being shot, but it also has this wonderful autoaim (default). I doesn't pull of any headshots but anyone with a pair of hands is able to point the gun somewhat in the direction of where his/her friends character is.

Hehe, what about autoaim in Liero?

[nihil abyssyncyst]

hehe, i think autoaim is a really bad idea for liero, that would sabotage someones ability to even improve on the one skill they need to play the game that isnt transferred from other games

Tafka, others, no i'm not trying to make a personal insult, but yeah i am making a jab, cause i disagree. mainly i was disagreeing with people who said split screen is always bad for action games and no one will ever play split screen action games, cause that is ridiculous as demonstrated by examples halo and smash bros, but if you dont think you would like playing lierox split screen, that is your opinion, though even there you are arguing that, a feature that was unremovable in the original when the game first became popular, is a feature that would make the game unplayable.

yeah so lierox i dont think has as much appeal as smash brothers, goldeneye, halo, but out of my game liking friends, at least half like liero, and i would probably be able to have some liero parties with them if something like this were implemented. as it is, i already have liero parties, but limited to 1 player per computer at a persons house, and there have been times where more people wanted to play than there were computers at a location.

Magni, i still think most players should be able to learn the moves on the first play given proper instructions, though i agree that first time players will have trouble combining these moves in their first game, until their coordination improves as they continue playing. a party is usually at least a couple hours long, if people like the game enough to play more than their first round, then part way through the party they might start getting some kills.

the idea for a training level is awesome. sometimes i lead a new player through a couple of moves, like i stand near them and tell them to aim and shoot. then stand on a higher platform where they have to jump while shooting. then tell them to rope up to some area. tell them to rope several times in a row with their rope at an upward diagonal angle, so they swing across the ceiling.

you know another possibility? if 4 screen split was allowed on a single computer (with netplay), then you could maybe even reduce the size in the four little windows so that the backgrounds would be 1 pixel to one pixel rather than 1 pixel to four pixels, then use liero sprites that are more like the original.

id like to finish this post with a story. when i first downloaded liero from a freeware and shareware games site back in 2000 or so, the game was so amazing that i immediately took it to school and gave it to like two other people in my computer science class. less than a week later, i walked to the back of that class, and saw that the game was being played on over half the screens in the class (in split screen only mode). what does that tell me about this game's possible popularity? does anyone else have similar results after introducing the game to computer classes where the teacher cant see all screens? maybe it was a fluke but i think this game could be a more serious cult classic than it is if given exposure somehow.

[Tafka]

Okei, I see that you are trying to say it is fun. Well, it would be fun. I also first played LieroX in 2003 september, when our school started and one boy downloaded LieroX to all computers, and we played lame settings like 0% shock mod in Jungle.lxl, but it wouldn't be the same anymore, as I'm far more advanced than any of the others. Even Crusader who played this game for years doesn't really match me anymore, so I wouldn't quite get the fun what I get from net-play, even in 60 pings for Finnish servers, but I know the people and it gives some challenge. The thing that makes fun in parties, is that you actually see the others, it is more emotional. LieroX would work for LAN-parties, if skill levels don't differ too much, but I don't even see the fun in playing LieroX in split screen. Not talking about 4-player screen. Alright, perhaps it's cause we were using one keyboard (is there possible to use 2 keyboards at a time? ), but the view wasn't so great, and the cameras disturbed a bit. It was at least some fun due to Samara and Crusader both being good players, we mostly played splt-screen with Samara, we used to visit each-other a lot 2-6 years ago. But now they both retired. So let's say I wanna play LieroX with my 10-year-old neighbour, I still imagine it wouldn't be really fun.

As Magni said - ff you wanted to play such games in parties, there are WAY much better games for that than LieroX. There are currently other things that makes LieroX fun for me. It would perhaps only be good if there was a bigger resolution perhaps? and a 1-screen level, means no scrolling, and all the worms fit in the one screen, everyone has their own joystick or game-pad or keyboard or whatever those consoles are being played with, then it would actually create some joy. And that would be the only thing I can think of right now.