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So close to being revived (Forum Discussion ) by Qaz, June 16, 2019, 10:13:54 am
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Author Topic: Something to think about, Raziel  (Read 15554 times)

Odin

Something to think about, Raziel
« on: June 22, 2008, 04:28:23 pm »
In case you didn't know yet, Raziel, I played earlier today in your server.
Took a quick break from studying and decided to reinstall the game for some entertainment and found your server, which in my eyes was till now always enjoyable. This time however, you decided to ban me for performing the (ss-nap) combo that I've always like to do. You never banned me for it before. I even thought you enjoyed playing with me, but the last two games I've had with you were both unpleasant. Why? I thought you were an intelligent and kind person, but the last couple of times you really disappointed me.

Was it my undercover playing? I'm sorry for that, but to get into your server you must be really fast and I always click on the wrong character (I'm using the old version). But should that matter? Why is a player who's not using his common name different from one who does?
No, I think you're smarter than that, you treat them equally, or atleast, that's what I hope.

Was it my behaviour? Don't think I did anything wrong, besides answering "yeah" on a question that was as annoying as the answer itself. No, again, you're smarter than that, or atleast that's what I hope.

So, we come to the combo part then.
Yeah, I love to use it. The reason therefor is that it gives me the speed to avoid the doomsday/cannon/chaingun/whatever-spam. It makes me come near to my opponent a lot faster in a way that my opponent has no chance of hitting me and at that time, which I consider playing agressively. Or atleast, that's whay I understand under playing with such style: Staying near your opponent, not running away. On top of that, it guarantees a beautiful kill as it requires way more skills than just aiming and shooting.

What makes it skillful in my eyes?
First of all, you can't perform a more straight attack than with that trick.
Well, consider what happens if you're not capable of doing it:
- You spill a whole round of the supershotgun.
- You spill a whole napalm.
That means you don't have many weapons left to kill the opponent, thus leading to a quick death in the case that you're not an experienced player.
On top of that, I think it's a good way to make use of the most overpowered weapon in that setting, as some might say.

Is it wrong to do it?
No. We all start with the same weapons we can choose in the beginning. Your servers' entrytext mentions: "Bans are giving as I like" or something like that. Why can't I make use of a technique that is on one side very risky, but on the other side enourmously effective, agressive (the way you always say that games should be like) and uncommon, i.e. refreshing?

This time, Raziel, I think you're really wrong.
1) You're preventing players from innovation. Hooray, another new level, hooray and another new mod, but does that really bring something new? After all, it's you who's still playing the same old setting (LieroFactory 100%) every time I see you. Not that that's bad, but some renewal won't harm us.

2) You're preventing players from gaining the skills needed to survive. That's like saying: Hey, we found the medication to cure AIDS, but let's not use it, it's lame...

3) You're asking for honourable playing, which is in your eyes playing with an agressive style. I agree on that part, but again, you're preventing players from doing so.

I think that your problem is - and it might sound a bit rude although that is not at all my intention - that you (and a few others too ofcourse) are too conservative. I could even say that you're living in the past. Too many times you're referring to the past, the good old yesterday. Come on, I've heard that a million of times. But isn't the present something worth fighting for too?
The game is undergoing a huge evolution, a good one, and that's something you had a big part in. You were the one who praised the honourable playing, and as your name is still more or less famous, a lot of wannabe's followed your example. But at this moment, you're stopping the evolution that you, yourself, were unleashed. My suggestion: Don't!

I don't care what you want to do with my vision on this matter, but I would really like to get an answer on 2 questions:

1) What do you exactly understand under "honourable playing"?
2) Why is it in your eyes wrong to perform a combo? Please give me a better argument than "It's lame." or "It's called 100% which is not combo.", because both reasons are crappy ones. For the second reason, I could simply answer that it's again Darwin's Law that will decide who's the strongest, and that's what this game is all about, isn't it? The one that is able to perform a trick to take out his opponent in a quick way, does not have to fear for his life.

I would really like to get your opinion on this. I've even heard other guys that were able to perform the combo, that they fear to be kicked out of someone's server and thus don't continue gaining skills in it.
In my eyes, kicking/banning them is the same like going into a mortar server, winning and being kicked. Exactly the same thing.

But ofcourse, it's YOUR server and YOU can do whatever you want! Just don't expect others to have even a bit respect for you in that case. That is just a sign of a childish, egoistic mentality.

This message was meant to go to Raziel, but I think it's a subject worth discussing about.

Raziel, I couldn't care less about the things you do, but I'm afraid that other players, who're not brave enough to stand up for their rights, will have the same problem. We used to have fun games which I already thanked you and I really respected you as a person and a player, but now you'll have to gain my respect again, if that even means something to you.
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Shade

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2008, 04:34:01 pm »
Haha, I was there as well.
You got pwnt Mr Deadmau5.
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Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2008, 04:48:18 pm »
1)
But ofcourse, it's YOUR server and YOU can do whatever you want!
Exactly. Especially if he thinks that combo in 100lt is lame (as do many, including I)
2) This belongs to PM
3) lol @ this thread. tl;dr + I actually thought better of you.


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Shade

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2008, 04:50:43 pm »
Can't blame him for trying new tricks in an old mod.
You were banned cause its to pro for Raz to cope with.
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Odin

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2008, 05:02:57 pm »
1)
But ofcourse, it's YOUR server and YOU can do whatever you want!
Exactly. Especially if he thinks that combo in 100lt is lame (as do many, including I)
2) This belongs to PM
3) lol @ this thread. tl;dr + I actually thought better of you.

Well done Kurt. Your message shows the following:
--> 1) Egoism, but hey, do whatever you like (y).
--> 2)
2) This belongs to PM
I've said my reason to not write in a PM, but publicly. There are others, apparently you too, who have their own opinions on it and they matter, but still the only reason you can find is: It's lame. If you're not interested, stay away.
--> 3) Lol@your post. You've said nothing new, only pointed out your mentality. Once again you hide in some random computerlanguage I do not even understand. I actually thought better of you, congratulations.

May the next posters really contribute to the discussion and if not just try to avoid the "Post" button.

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Shade

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2008, 05:32:40 pm »
I can only rofl.
I am immobilized with laughter.

Odin, my hats off to you for trying new things.
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Raziel

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Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2008, 05:40:10 pm »
Answer is mostly for Odin, so all the other people who dislike reading can simply skip this post.
I don't send the answer in a form off PM, because maybe someone else will read as well, and I will not have to reapt myself again to this someone else.
--------------------------------------------


Oh, nice post there. I actually read it all. Making it personal is probably a good idea, because the concerned person should focus on the text, even if it's soooo big.

But you put it all well, so I will waste some time and answer this and that.

In theory, you are right, and you have full rights to feel bad about the ban you have recieved. However, there is a line which I'm glad you wrote:

Quote
But ofcourse, it's YOUR server and YOU can do whatever you want! Just don't expect others to have even a bit respect for you in that case. That is just a sign of a childish, egoistic mentality.

That's perfectly well said how it is. Only, no need to lecture me about expectations. I don't expect anything from people in this community. People from whom I expect something are friends in my clan and a FEW outsiders. I'm not obligated to explain my reasons of this egoistic behavior. Being altruistic is childdish, being egositic to some extend (the way how you take "to some extend" phrase depends on your own moral values), shows maturity and experience in the relations between humans. You don't have to believe me, sooner or later you should see it this way as well, I guess.

Now the annoying thing which you misunderstand.
Honourable playing is NOT being recommended by me, neither I ask anyone to play like that. I stated my opinion about this word, which is used here in a very wrong way, long ago. And for certain I will not do it again. If you missed it somehow, that's none of my concern.
To put it simple - there is no honourable playing. Milec tried to convert some players to this whole honourable gaming, but as you see, he failed. Perhaps I used in the past this word, but I also already admitted that it was a mistake to do so.

The gaming I like has nothing to do with honour, it's not even aggression. It's just playing without any breaks. It's like racing Ferrari through crowded city, racing with other mad guys who also have fast cars, tunned up, nitro under seats. There is just speed, adrenaline and your instincts. It's one way ticket. You simply know that this life will be damn short, but the point is, to make it full of action.

There is no place to slow down, no stops, nobody can get away, nobody can hide, nobody can camp. There is no place for silly tactics, no place for silly tricks, no place for waiting till the opponent makes first mistake, no hesitating at anything. Pull your gaming skills to the "Stright forward" direction and just let it flow. When you are out of ammo, it's like no more nitro in your car. You slow down quite much, but you still feel the rush and don't stop at anything, always stright forward. No hiding, no camping, no running away.

It is hard to explain what I really like. I don't think anyone can find one word for that. It's reckless and silly perhaps, but this is MY liking.

Now, I do not force anyone to play like this, do I? If people are banned, it means they didn't fit me. I'm not obligated to explain everyone what was wrong in his actions, what I disliked. It's boring to repeat everything over and over. I'm not influencing people as much as you might think. As you say, they don't respect me, and this is fine for me, so why would they listen? What's the big deal here? I like to play in this way, and people who cannot adapt are being disallowed to join my server.  I have a few friends with whom I like to play in this way. I can list them down here cuz it's a short list, but there is no point. Most of my clan mates annoy me as well. But, I shut up and play with them, because I do not want to force anyone, don't want to stop people playing in the way THEY are enjoying. I just keep them away of me, or the other way, I stay away of those.

Your combo in 100 LT game. Eeeeeh, nowadays it's a trendy. Level up for pro players. People who master it are so cool. I could say "fine, but do it on other servers". However, you wanted me to tell you why I don't allow it on my server.

Actually, nowadays many people got bans on my servers for that. Many of them were confused just as you are, thinking that they do nothing wrong. Even these old players, annoying and known in this community, who usually can stay on my server even if I don't enjoy their playing styles much.

I am against it, because there is simple rule, no combo in 100 LT. Call it evolution, innovation, additional skill - I will still call it combo. It's conservative, I agree. And?
Other thing that is annoying about it - when people get use to that trick, they always screw up when they are cornered. It's like panicing. Suddenly they shoot out everything they got straight into me - by accident of course. They wanted to shoot ss below their ass and drop napalm at my head from above, probably, but they forgot to aim down while being in panic. Often they shoot other weapons in a combo way, so it's like keeping fire button pressed and switching weapons randomly. In 100 LT it is unacceptable - again - ON MY SERVER. Even if you say "Nah, I mastered it and I dont do these mistakes" I wont believe you. I've seen already every player who was using SS+Napalm "trick" panicing at some point.

Quote
2) You're preventing players from gaining the skills needed to survive. That's like saying: Hey, we found the medication to cure AIDS, but let's not use it, it's lame...

That's totally out of the blue and unrelated. Either explain clearly what you mean in there (and it would be nicer if it is not repeating the point 1) only in other words), or we rather ignore this.

And the last thing, playing undercover on my server IS RISKY.
Usually I don't kick out players who can speak well on LXA forums, or I can enjoy some games with them. Even if they do something I dislike or they annoy me, I still let them stay - most of them at least. When you come undercover - sorry dude, don't count on my patience. I don't like playing silly "guess who I might be" games. I also dislike idiotic nicknames, and definitely can't stand unknown dudes from Korea/Australia/Canada/Usa/Portugal or other Mars. High ping is enough big reason to kick/ban them. Other than that, I let play everyone and treat them with same big ignorance. During the game they can either impress me (rare case), stay neutral (also rare case) or disgust me (happens often). It's not about being smart as you assume (I hope that you don't try to play with my ambitions, I know the range of my intelligence and I always make sure to put my smarty panties on when i need them), it's simply about being hell annoyed by:
- random newbies leaving during a game after the first time they get killed,
- begging for mortars,
- picking 5 napalms or 5 x SS,
- doing combos,
- playing like a total crap and keeping saying "LOLz u good",
- talking too much, without making any sense,
- plenty of other reasons.

Don't expect me to treat everyone in equal - cultural way. If I smell a fine person, I ban it immediately. Of course it doesn't imply that every banned person is a fine person though, other reasons should be known from the previous bricks of text in this post.

Here is a piece of me. I don't pretend anything. I give you an honest answer, because it was pretty impressive how you could put your points without making it sound as the start of flamewar.
This what you or the other guys might think about me now is not my concern either. As I said, I am an individual, without a will to brainwash anyone else and drag into my own way of thinking/doing things. You all can do as you like, play as you like, write as you like. As long as Im not involved, and it's not my server that is :)
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Spoon

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2008, 06:06:48 pm »
Odin, when you joined with your fake nick by accident, did you take any time to say 'Hi guys, Odin here'?

About the combo thing I find it a bit of a grey area, since they way I've seen some do it firing the shotgun at nothing to give them speed towards the target for the napalm. Others try to fire the shotgun at the player and drop the napalm as they fly away. The first is using one weapon to aim another, the second is attempting to hit with two weapons at once.

I would say the first isn't a 'combo', while the second is. Depends what you were doing. Tbh, the first example i gave rarely happens so fast you could call it a combo.

Attempting to unload two weapons at once is comboing, regardless of other benefits you claim as the reason for doing it.

:)
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Ruki

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 06:11:40 pm »
Since I am indirectly involved into this.

Why does Super Shotgun + Napalm combo not belong in 100 lt?
First the definition of "combo". Combo is a fast switch of weapons, doesn't matter which. Could be just 2 weapons or all 5. It is performed by holding the "switch the weapon" button and rapidly pressing/hitting the "shooting" and one of the two "change the weapon" buttons.

There are 2 common loading times. 20 lt and 100 lt. First one for the use of combos and second one for the use of "noncombos". There is not a mixture of those settings. They diferentiate too much to be equally combined. In the past there were Rifle + Mini Nukes/Spikeballs combos but all played with low loading time and all the weapons being used at once.

100 lt is a game with slower loading time, where the attacking should be balanced according to the 100 % loading time. It means you do not shoot all your weapons at once and then run around the level until you reload them and here we go again. You have to pick the appropriate weapon when fighting (long range, close range, weapon power) and use it well. If you empty it for nothing, your problem. Now you must obviously run or perform a combo to stay competative with the opponent who wasn't as foolish to empty his weapon for nothing. That is very common when players spawn. They shoot all of the weapons they have and often miss.

Super Shotgun and Napalm combo is a combo and just for being a combo it is forbidden in a noncombo game in the first place. Yes, everybody can choose same weapons in the beginning of the game but not everybody is explicitely told they can use combos. People assume they are forbidden to use combos in 100 lt so you would have an advantage when using them. So you are saying you aren't able to play agressive without having an advantage. Now that is weak.

You can't use a Napalm combo in Rifles 20 lt game. You can't use Bazooka when it is banned. You don't give a regular goal with your hand in football. Combos are banned and forbidden in 100 lt game, SS + Napalm makes it no difference, so "yes, it is wrong to do it". It goes with the unwritten rules of LieroXtreme. Loading time of 100 % is playing a game without combos. If you want to play it under different rules, go ahead but don't get frustrated when you are blamed for disobeying the rules. In my server 100 lt means no combos. Deal with it or leave then.

And I really have enough of the surprise and ignorance when I ask somebody to stop comboing in 100 lt in our server.
Code: [Select]
[RIP] Ruki: Rafman, stop comboing
[OwZ] Rafman: what's wrong with it?
[RIP] Ruki: we are playing a noncombo game
[RIP] Ruki: that's what is wrong with it
[OwZ] Rafman: listen
[OwZ] Rafman: if you want me to play agressive
[OwZ] Rafman: then that's the way it's gonna be
[OwZ] Rafman: if you're not ok with that
[OwZ] Rafman: i can always leave
[RIP] Ruki: fine with me

[RIP] Ruki: okay, the combos are going or I am going
[OwZ] Rafman: i'm not your puppy ruki
[RIP]Raziel RH+: Shhh
[OwZ] Rafman: but have it your way
[RIP]Raziel RH+: Now then
[OwZ] Rafman has left

Code: [Select]
[RIP] Ruki: yeah do combos
[NB-AT] *Namura*: whiner RIP
[RIP] Ruki: sure
[NB-AT] *Namura*: *****
...
[NB-AT] *Namura*: combo
[NB-AT] *Namura*: nice
[NB-AT] *Namura*: ss spammer
[NB-AT] *Namura*: rip
[NB-AT] *Namura*: rip runner
[NB-AT] *Namura*: hg spam
[NB-AT] *Namura*: xD

Code: [Select]
[RIP] Ruki: and a combo, nice!
[RIP]Raziel: both of you
[RIP]Raziel: do annoying combo
[AoG] Ahmed: lol
[AoG]'SL'*Gyogyi*: like?
[AoG] Ahmed: i combo ftw
[RIP]Raziel: what like?
[RIP]Raziel: ss and napalm
[AoG]'SL'*Gyogyi*: which weapons?
[AoG] Ahmed: yah!
[AoG]'SL'*Gyogyi*: all do
[AoG]'SL'*Gyogyi*: even you
[RIP] Ruki: I don't
[AoG] Ahmed: =p
[RIP]Raziel: in fact, you both do panic and shot everything you have
[RIP]Raziel: at once
[RIP]Raziel: so its like comboing
[AoG]'SL'*Gyogyi*: it works
[RIP]Raziel: newby move
[AoG] Ahmed: Yeahhh
[AoG]'SL'*Gyogyi*: eh
[AoG] Ahmed: II am nub
[RIP]Raziel: works, but is forbidden on this sserver
[AoG]'SL'*Gyogyi*: fine
[AoG] Ahmed: oooooooooohhh
[AoG] Ahmed: okay
[AoG] Ahmed: I play normal :D
[AoG]'SL'*Gyogyi*: lets try differently then :)

Also as mentioned above a lot of players do a "panic combo attack" when you are close to them. The opponent will shoot at you everything he has as fast as possible, usually with few if not all combo slips. In practice it looks like this: shoot Doomsday and when it is about half of it used do a combo with Cannon and then with Napalm. If the opponent is still alive, shoot the left overs at him and unused Chaingun or Handgun. You totally forgot to use the Super Shotgun so now empty that one. After that just fly around and use Napalm.


Just a thought...
Using Super Shotgun gives you some nice velocity and blasts you away, for quite some distance. Your point was to stay close to the enemy with Super Shotgun and Napalm combo. If you are staying with the opponent and you perform your "trick", you will get blasted away. Flying above your opponent with enormous velocity is not staying with the opponent.

Another of your points was that SS + Napalm combo is the straightest attack possible. Are you saying that using a rope to swing yourself down in the corridor of LFR, ignoring the Doomsday and Cannon projectiles coming from somebody camping in the corridor, to attack the guy hiding there is not as straight as your "combo"? Or when you are being out of your weapons and you still stay an inch next to your opponent while he is trying to hit you, that is not as straight as your "combo"?

Your point is also when you miss, you are out of those 2 weapons. So what, when I die and spawn or when that happens with my opponent I often shoot Super Shotgun just to get to him faster. Without combination with any other weapon.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 06:37:37 pm by Ruki »
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Griffin

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2008, 06:23:47 pm »
Worth pointing out that when we (rightly) define comboing to be when we shoot two weapons in a row with little or no pause, that most players combo doomsday, cannon, and chaingun.
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Ruki

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 06:27:58 pm »
Worth pointing out that when we (rightly) define comboing to be when we shoot two weapons in a row with little or no pause, that most players combo doomsday, cannon, and chaingun.
Refered to as a "panic attack" in upper posts.
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[leke]GrassNinja

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 06:54:52 pm »
So when I shoot all my cannon at my opponent (probably on close range) and he's still alive, should I wait some seconds till I use the next weapon, just so I don't combo? ^o)

Or, for example, when someone's camping in the LFR tunnel, and I use the SS recoil to shoot myself in and get him with a napalm drop by surprise, is that combo for you? (Because I drop the napalm 1-2 seconds after I used the SS.

I'd just like to hear your opinion about there two cases.
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Gaston

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 06:56:52 pm »
Actually unwritten rules of LX does not say that the SS Napalm combo isn't allowed in 100lt. It may have in the past, but at this point, it is so well known and usually accepted amongst most players in 100lt games, that this unwritten rule only goes for the minority who does not accept this, and not for LX in general.

Aside from that, this whole problem could be solved by a new setting in OLX (or Hirudo) where between every weapon switch there is an automatic break of X seconds before you are able to fire it. As usual, this whole problem comes down to the lack of options and raffinement in the software at the moment.
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Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 08:25:18 pm »
Quote from: Ruki
100 lt is a game with slower loading time, where the attacking should be balanced according to the 100 % loading time. It means you do not shoot all your weapons at once and then run around the level until you reload them and here we go again. You have to pick the appropriate weapon when fighting (long range, close range, weapon power) and use it well. If you empty it for nothing, your problem. Now you must obviously run or perform a combo to stay competative with the opponent who wasn't as foolish to empty his weapon for nothing. That is very common when players spawn. They shoot all of the weapons they have and often miss.
Now that's an illusion. The most efficient way to play LieroX is by emptying your whole arsenal in the face of your opponent and stay out of his/her range untill you're fully loaded.

Quote from: Ruki
Super Shotgun and Napalm combo is a combo and just for being a combo it is forbidden in a noncombo game in the first place. Yes, everybody can choose same weapons in the beginning of the game but not everybody is explicitely told they can use combos. People assume they are forbidden to use combos in 100 lt so you would have an advantage when using them. So you are saying you aren't able to play agressive without having an advantage. Now that is weak.
Who are your 'people'? Every LieroX player? The majority of LieroX players? Well, I am not applying to your theory, thus it's the majority. Would you mind providing me with statistics?

I am myself using the recoil of the Supershotgun at least as much as I'm using it to harm my opponent, so I'm obviously supporting less straightforward ways in using the regular 1.0 weapons. The 100% loading time 1.0 consists of 3 weapons with a recoil, is it somehow wrong to use the recoil, forbidding it does drop the game a level. Is it also wrong to fire two weapons directly after each other, e.g. fireing a doomsday directly after a supershotgun, forbidding this is again dropping it down a level. Or is it perhaps only the Supershotgun - Napalm combo that is bad? Would I be allowed to use my recoils to avoid fire and propel my remaining weapons?

The usual rules in onlinegames are often whatever the game allows unless it's broken. A Supershotgun - Napalm Combo is not, nor is it unfair in any possible way. There are things that are good and bad for this game. E.g. the handgun is bad in every way as it promotes even more spam than the regular 1.0 with it's Supershotgun, napalm, cannon, doomsday and chaingun/blaster/grenade. Supershotgun - Napalm 'combos' are on the other hand promoting offensive and active gameplay, which is in my opinion good for this game.

Well, hosting your own server does give your the right to determine what's allowed and what's not.

Quote from: Gaston
Aside from that, this whole problem could be solved by a new setting in OLX (or Hirudo) where between every weapon switch there is an automatic break of X seconds before you are able to fire it. As usual, this whole problem comes down to the lack of options and raffinement in the software at the moment.
Putting a timer on weaponchanges isn't a very good idea in a game that revolves around switching and loading weapons (i.e. if your not playing the 'strike and load' way). Not only would you need to wait for your weapons to load but also to switch, adding up to an even higher time spent waiting, which isn't how you market a fast phased online game. A 'switchtime' would work if the whole weapon system was reworked to something similar to most popular fps' weapon systems (check out e.g. Soldatfor reference)
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Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 08:40:15 pm »
Now that's an illusion. The most efficient way to play LieroX is by emptying your whole arsenal in the face of your opponent and stay out of his/her range untill you're fully loaded.

Who are your 'people'? Every LieroX player? The majority of LieroX players? Well, I am not applying to your theory, thus it's the majority. Would you mind providing me with statistics?


The usual rules in onlinegames are often whatever the game allows unless it's broken. A Supershotgun - Napalm Combo is not, nor is it unfair in any possible way. There are things that are good and bad for this game. E.g. the handgun is bad in every way as it promotes even more spam than the regular 1.0 with it's Supershotgun, napalm, cannon, doomsday and chaingun/blaster/grenade. Supershotgun - Napalm 'combos' are on the other hand promoting offensive and active gameplay, which is in my opinion good for this game.

Well, hosting your own server does give your the right to determine what's allowed and what's not.

Putting a timer on weaponchanges isn't a very good idea in a game that revolves around switching and loading weapons (i.e. if your not playing the 'strike and load' way).

strike and load. do everything at once then 'reload'. isn't this called running? Aside from the fact that it is RUNNING, this is all assuming that your opponent is a fine person. If you decide to empty everything on them, run away, and reload, you're also assuming that your opponent emptied their arsenal. If that isn't true, YOU ARE RUNNING FROM THEM. I mean, if LX is supposed to be a real-time shooting game, the fact that you prefer a shoot, stall, shoot stall strategy defeats the purpose.

Asking for statistics is just a weak way of justifying your personal thoughts. If you think for a sec, "most" is a relative word, you don't really need to dwell on it.

Doing things unless it's broken... probably just me but doesnt this rule usually apply for games that are constantly maintained and/or patched. Think for a sec, and please realize that I'm right. Since LX was made and mods are rarely fixed, weapons are bound to be "broken". Napalm combo, although offensive, defeats the purpose of having a "slow-paced" game as it is expected that one weapon reloads uniquely and universally. This not only adds to strategy, but also prevents "RUNNING". But if you decide to spam 5 napalms, COMBOING comes into play. Loading time is totally skewed and opponents have to GUESS. Wouldn't you think that this will STALL a game? I'd think so.

TEEHEE!

Strike and Load aka RUNNING/
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Oh my God, every one just shut up.

Odin

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2008, 08:59:10 pm »
Ah great, after some regular spam which can be expected from a public forum, I can see some mature talking.

First of all, to Raziel, my apologies for taking this into the public. Frustration is the best word I can think of right now to describe the feelings I had after being banned. The reason for the frustration is that I enjoyed our previous games and the time we spent together. As I'm a social human being, it's not more than normal that when a, - May I call you? - friend decides to end the relationship with just pressing the button "ban", someone who cares can get frustrated. My primary goal in this game, which was enjoying the game itself, has switched to enjoying the company of interesting individuals and with you banning me, that meant a serious loss for me, as you were and still are ofcourse a person with interesting thoughts.

Ruki already showed that I had problems with this issue before, and regarding the already posted answers, there are indeed as I expected different opinions on it. I'd say that we could discuss it further in private, but if you're ok with it, I think it can form the base of a good discussion about what's going on into this game these days.

To start with Raziels post
Your "liking", is exactly my "liking". No running, just going for it and indeed when out of ammunition, staying close. That's exactly the way I play or atleast try to and I've noticed you do the same. So far, we're sharing the same thoughts.

When I said "You're preventing players from gaining the skills needed to survive", I was trying to say that a person who has the chance to develop a new technique to survive longer in the battle, should be applauded for it and encouraged if that indeed provides longer living. (Just forget the rest of that quote, something must have gone wrong while translating it into English here and thereby lost its meaning.) Darwin would be rolling over in his coffin however, when he should see that a stronger generation's evolution is inhibited.
Practically, that is the combo for me, as it kills the opponent a lot quicker and so I don't have to fear his whole battery of weapons. I could wait untill he has had the chance to unleash all his weapons upon me, but I choose a quicker way, so that he has not even the chance to do so. I've proven to a lot of players already that it's a deadly weapon on itself and that it guarantees a longer survival.
Let's take for example the beloved tunnel in LieroFactory (I say: close it!). There's no better place than that one, to perform a combo, because you can, without waiting for an opponent spamming all of his weapons, attack him and take him out, before he does more damage.
If you agree on the part of the tunnel, then take a further look. What happens if you do it in the open places of the level? Again, without waiting, the combo provides the opportunity to attack your opponent and take him out on a fast and clean way, i.e. not making a lot of spam yourself.
All of this needs tons of practice and although the short-term result may look like someone who you could describe as a spammer, the long-term result is pretty good.

The spam, yeah, with that we come to the panicing. Indeed, I've seen players doing the combo as a result of their fear to get caught. But when these persons try so, and are not too experienced, their action leads to a quick suicide. So, that should not be a too big issue here. If one is experienced, he can reform the situation where he's the mouse into a situation in which he's the cat. Again, practice is needed, and in that progress a lot of mistakes can and will be made.

Another thing I could conclude from your post is that you like the play with a small, steady group. That's something I do not understand, again from a social point of view. You're practically saying that you're building a giant castle in which only the privileged can enter. Well, that's in my eyes a denial (probably the wrong word) of the person in his whole aspect, just like the "ban-button" is. A person can do good things and a person can do rather bad things, but rewarding him or far worse, punishing him for that one aspect is intrinsicly wrong I think.
My advice, do something with it. I mean, enjoy the social part that this game, like many more, can offer. Enjoy the richness of cultures, opinions and believes and don't build that wall around you that excludes you from all of it.

I hope that explains it all a bit.  :)

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Ruki, I'm glad you're reading this too and sharing your thoughts, because indeed we had a problem before and I hope to eradicate it by explaining my intentions.

First of all, you're talking about settings that have been in the game for a really long time now. You're also talking about the unwritten rules. But the problem is that the game has changed a lot and that there has been a giant evolution in all of its aspects, for instance the playing style itself.
That means that the unwritten rules, with it all, have changed too. So, perhaps we should make clear in the future in the beginning of the game what we should do exactly, combo or no combo and whatever you might think of. But in that case, I predict a bad evolution.

Then you're implying that I would not be aggressive without my combo. That is indeed what you could conclude from that conversation there.
But look at it from my point of view. I use my combo to get close to someone and not to get away from someone. The combo is something that should help my to be aggressive and is not something that causes my aggressivity.

Indeed, the combo blasts you away from my opponent, but you've been near him and that's what I understand under the word aggressivity: straight forward. But the same thing goes for using the supershotgun itself. As a result of its gigantic recoil, you can't do something else but fly away in the opposite direction from the one you shot.

"The straightest attack possible" was perhaps wrong. But I think it's better to do that, than entering the cave way slower and recieve all the bullets that you get thrown to your head.

I hope that I made clear that my intention is one that is focussed on fast paced gaming, going straight forward whatever that foolish act may cause.

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Pfff, I could write a whole lot more, but I think that is enough for one post.

One thing that I want to make sure you understand: Do not think that I want that whatever I have in my mind, should be followed. But I'm glad I opened the discussion after all.

Edit: Oh darn, 2 more replies. That's for another time.




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Gaston

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2008, 09:08:44 pm »
Putting a timer on weaponchanges isn't a very good idea in a game that revolves around switching and loading weapons (i.e. if your not playing the 'strike and load' way). Not only would you need to wait for your weapons to load but also to switch, adding up to an even higher time spent waiting, which isn't how you market a fast phased online game. A 'switchtime' would work if the whole weapon system was reworked to something similar to most popular fps' weapon systems (check out e.g. Soldatfor reference)
Making it possible to set time to allow people to cater to their taste due to the diversity that many players feel it should have wouldn't be a bad idea IMO. Of course, it has to be adjustable, and not a final time setting that goes for all games player in lx.
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26 Mars 2007
Belle: woah, is that a neatly snuck in sexproposition? Could I ask you to take of your pants?

Krayonaise

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 09:27:41 pm »

Your "liking", is exactly my "liking".


FELL DA LOVE!
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Oh my God, every one just shut up.

Raziel

  • Guest
Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 09:42:40 pm »
FEEL Kray, feel is the correct word ;>

By the way, this brought me on mind a pretty awesome idea:

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Let's take for example the beloved tunnel in LieroFactory (I say: close it!).

Other than that, somehow Im not interested in continuing the dispute on "Is SS+Napalm comboing a bad or good thing?". There is no solution - some people accept it, some don't. Me and Ruki don't accept it at all, so at our servers and in our company do not use it, or be prepared to get kick or ban. And that's all. Both sides can keep telling about their thoughts and will prove how correct their thinking is. But there is no universal truth in this world, on this everyone should agree. So just take it as another factor of compatibility amongst LX players.

Mortars lovers/ mortars haters
100 LT lovers/ 100lt haters
Rifles lovers/ rifle haters
SS+Napalm lovers/SS+Napalm haters.

If you were picking servers, and as base of your choice you used the first three preferences - now just add the 4th one to the list and we have problem solved.

EDIT:
Ah yes. Keep in mind, that my anger management is WEAK these days.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 09:47:49 pm by Raziel »
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Odin

Re: Something to think about, Raziel
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2008, 09:57:53 pm »
Perhaps you're right, though forever running away from the problems does not really solve anything. It only creates new ones or makes the old ones even worse.

But with this being said very well,:
But there is no universal truth in this world, on this everyone should agree.

I'll close the thread.
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