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Author Topic: Gas Prices!  (Read 6710 times)

NightShade

Gas Prices!
« on: May 24, 2008, 09:41:48 pm »
These days a debate is going on in Norway, Sweden as well as USA. In Norway they are talking about raising the prize from 12-13.50 to 15-17NOK (norwegian money) per litre(!!!!!!) thats 2-3 us dollar (15-17NOK). Then I watched the news yesterday about american truckers protesting against the prizes going up to about 5-7 (NOK) per litre in USA.
Here is the math if prizes will get raised (highest number mentioned is calculated):
Norway:      17 NOK             = 2,5$           - per litre!
USA:              7 NOK             = 1$              - per litre!

Ofcourse there is the national economy to consider. (sallory, market, products, etc.....)
Example: Lamborgini in USA 200.000$ + registration (another 50.000 maybe?) = 1,75 million NOK
Lamborgini in Norway is 5million NOK or something including registration.

That was to make an example of the national market influence on prizes.

Either way, the gas prizes ain't following the national economy. This will affect everyone, those who drive a car and even those who use public forms of transportation. (prize for a bus-ticket will go up because the jump in gas-prize)

Norway and Sweden got a chain-mail and chain-phone message saying to boycott 2 of the largest gas-companys  in Norway (Statoil and Shell) leaving Esso as the only big gas-station left. This is done with a hope that it will force the gas-prizes down again! The company owners has allready shown worry if this boycott will take place.

This is the current state of the situation. Now I hope I made a clear overlook of the case so you, can take part of this discussion.
This will affect you one way or the other. Even if you are under 18, your parents will have less money etc......!

Looking forward to hearing you opinions!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 09:51:12 pm by Ruki »
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Griffin

Re: Gas Prizes!
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2008, 09:44:24 pm »
Let's just avoid gas, everyone knows it's bad for the environment!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 10:03:48 pm by Griffin »
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Spectro

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2008, 10:00:46 pm »

Ruki

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2008, 10:04:33 pm »
I fixed the typo in the title, now please stop spamming, this is Cavern of Enlightenment.

In 1974 price for a barrel of gas was 20 Dollars, today it is 135 Dollars. In my country all the people rush to gas stations when they say on the news the prices will go up again. Gas is a material we use and need every day so the prices can go up. We will still buy it. Gas lobby is very strong, same as tobacco lobby.

Oh yeah, there is a car engine which works with water but the inventor and inovator is hidden. What would happen if we used water instead of gas? Economy would get screwed and in countries which live only from gas and oil would be even more wars when countries would have practically nothing to offer.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 10:07:27 pm by Ruki »
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Hermod

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 10:11:41 pm »
Well, i think it's good, if the petrol price will get very expensive (it already is, but more) More people will buy environment friendly cars, we have plenty already, toyota something.. Volvo is also doing some cars on Bio-something, and it's going pretty good if i'm not wrong. Also the green house effect is quite scary, so we have to stop using petrol.
And the earth doesn't have much oil left, at least not discoveerd oil..

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Spectro

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2008, 10:32:18 pm »
The reason we haven't switched to alternative fuels yet isn't because there are no alternatives, but because governments subsidize oil. That's why gas prices are so low in the US. i.e. we landed an arms deal with Saudi Arabia that gave us leverage over their oil. Also turns out that the oil lords run countries (indirectly AND directly- just look at the whole Rockefeller family).

So we have big bankers and "the elite" few who control the largest distribution of money in the world and guess what they're all invested in? Oil. Why would they want to see their investments crumble? It just so happens that they are also the ones controlling and SUPPRESSING these alternative fuel ideas.

Like Ruki mentioned- a guy made a car that ran off water through the simplest damn process of extracting hydrogen from it. The same guy built a welding torch that cut through bricks and solid iron but the flame condensed into water droplets when held up to human flesh. Yeah. ****ing mind blowing. But why aren't these brilliant innovations on the market yet? Because they endanger our current market and economy. Too many head honchos that aren't ready to change because they loose their money. It's about greed. The whole "green" rave is helping. The US government is basically forced into progression now, but it's obviously reluctant otherwise we'd be on the roads with engines that run on water instead of liquid gold- the worlds economic cornerstone.

Alternative fuels won't happen until the people start smartening up or at least act like they understand this shit.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 11:21:31 pm by Spectro »
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Oxygen

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2008, 10:37:53 pm »
Why drive? I have feet for a reason, I walk everywhere. It's good for the enviroment, my wallet and me. I love walking and walking loves me.

However, I don't love the price the of cheese, It's $20 NZ dollars for a Kg of cheese in NZ now, I think thats about $15.75 US and $10 Euros. The price of food is too high!
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Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 12:20:48 am »
Well, i think it's good, if the petrol price will get very expensive (it already is, but more) More people will buy environment friendly cars, we have plenty already, toyota something.. Volvo is also doing some cars on Bio-something, and it's going pretty good if i'm not wrong. Also the green house effect is quite scary, so we have to stop using petrol.
And the earth doesn't have much oil left, at least not discoveerd oil..
"Environmental friendly cars" or "hybrid cars" (Toyota prius or whatever it's called) are mainly a marketing trick, yes they consume less gas huuray. But they consume shitloads of energy to manufacture compared to our regular cars with on engine. Any idea where that energy is coming from, certainly not from the air as the majority of this worlds electricity is made by burning fossil fuel. Yes, you will eventually save energy, but it isn't very realistic. You'll "help" this planet by walking to school instead of driving your moped or going by car with your parents.

There is still plenty of oil left on this planet. The thing is just that it wasn't very profitable to refine it ten years ago.

Yes, the price of food is soaring, and it will soar even more once people start making fuel out of food products. Just take a look at the corn prices for that last couple of years.


Just, this topic. Heck you live in Norway, don't you? It's not like it's an new phenomenon!
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Magni

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 12:42:42 am »
Converting H2O to 2H + 0 consumes 285,8KJ/mol. The same amount of energy is released in the reversed reaction, plus the electrolysis isn't 100% efficient. How does this make my car move forward? Maybe if you push it down a hill.

There are alternative fuels, but most(all) are impractical, expensive or unstable (the nuclearpowered car says hi!). Oil is used as a fuel in vehicle due to its high energy density.

The petrol price doesn't really affect a thing here in Finland. Prices go up, and people drive more and more, with  bigger and bigger cars. People wont give up on their cars that easily...And the government makes a shitload of money on the petrol taxes, which consists of around 50% of the consumer price.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 01:03:04 am by Magni »
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Perkele

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 02:29:32 am »
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lexon

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2008, 08:00:41 am »
I'm still in high school but even I know about the laws of energy.

The problem with the hydrogen/water car is:

You can run a car on water BUT it takes more energy to get the hydrogen out of the water than you would get out of the engine. Hydrogen isn't just there, you have to make it, using energy. Quite a lot of energy escapes as heat from the engine, this is the same with normal petrol engines and is a major challenge in engine design.

Here is how the process works:
Water is made up of 2 Hydrogen atoms (H) and 1 oxygen atom (O), so it is written as H2O
Energy is required to split them into hydrogen and oxygen (a method called electrolysis) and energy is given off when you combine them again (by burning in the engine or combining them in a "fuel cell")

The problem is where does the energy come from?
    Driving hydrogen car - energy comes from the hydrogen
    Hydrogen - energy comes from electricity required in electrolysis
    Electrical power - comes from burning coal in power plants, and sometimes from hydro dams

So the energy still comes from coal or gas plus a small amount from wind turbines, hydro dams, etc...
But people still think hydrogen cars are going to change the world.
sad.

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Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2008, 03:56:26 pm »
Whoa LExon, finally someone who is quite well known in this topic :)

Ive used to read so much about these things before.So, besides the things that everyone knows pointing at how coil made  things affect the environment and so on, Im really curious what do you guys think, when this continuous price increasing will reach the limit, where people start to make serious actions to stop it, make it lower, or similar things to these?

In my opinion, the NATO itself cant be strong enough to stop these mostly Arabic countries from starting a war.
Here in Hungary 1 litre of Gas costs about 1,45  American dollars now with all the taxes and we can ( of course) wait for some more rise in these prices.

About finding an alternative not so environment polluting fuel I think it's already in our hands. Im talking about different kind of electric current producing tools, like Wind wheels and their power plants, or tide power plants ( there is at least one in the Netherlands) which use the Earth's natural energy and dont have any harmful by-products.  The fact is that we need quite many of them to get the same amount of energy, they took more space, and they even look ugly sometime, so people dont like it.  And often countries stupidity is also a reason, like here.

Just a story:
There is a border between Austria and Hungary. On Austria's side there are hundreds of wind wheels, which produce enough energy for quite a few towns at one time. People say oh yeah its Austria with its hills and such, so sure thing that they do have those  eventough these are only 3 km far from the border which means that they are on a really plain place. So as most people think, Hungary doesnt have so high hills, and  windy areas like that and because people are not used to them there is just 3 of them on the Hungarian side !. ( At that part of the border) Then we may drop up the simple question, is there any km high glass wall, that doesnt let the wind go 5 kms further to Hungary while everything else is able to go trough on it ?:P

It sounds straight and really dumb, isnt it ?:P


And I myself believe that, There is a big future for us, younger ones to take  part from the new fuel business, that comes after coil and oil . Just get the right studies and diploma for that, then with some luck of course, you are able to join to a company which is releasing and making popular these new features.

The only problem is, who would have enough money to make environment- friendly stations all around the world at the same time? I guess nobody, besides the big Oil Lord's. But they wont do anything, why would they, they can get Oil cheaper, for sure . :P And then the circle closes down.



Thats all I've wanted to share with you now. :)
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Petee

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2008, 05:51:02 pm »
Here in Austria on litre of petrol costs now about 1,45 euros, thats about 2.30 US Dollar. Thats the highest price ever in Austria!!!
In 1970 one litre of gas costs about 30€ cents...

People should investigate in Waterpowerplants, Wind energy or wood. these will make gas price lower and and so on.

But theres a big problem, mostly things around us were made out of plastic or something other produced with Oil. If there no Oil resources left people have to invite something and this will be soon.

So guys walk or use your bike :)
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pelya

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2008, 06:42:49 pm »
The problem is where does the energy come from?
    Driving hydrogen car - energy comes from the hydrogen
    Hydrogen - energy comes from electricity required in electrolysis
    Electrical power - comes from burning coal in power plants, and sometimes from hydro dams
The power plant will always have higher efficiency than car engine - it won't get over 25% for usual car engine and 35% for diesel, on power plants you'll get 40% into electricity, plus output heat is re-used to boil water for houses. The coal is also much cheaper, and you certainly won't load it into a car. Oh, we can also get electricity from nuclear power plants.
Conclusion: Cars suxx let's ride trams and trolley buses and dig metro everywhere ;D .
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 06:45:32 pm by pelya »
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Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 06:58:47 pm »
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Petee

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2008, 07:15:18 pm »
Sure i dont want you to freeze in winter, but in countries where its possible ppl should do it!!!

Collecitve traffic would  be a solution in big cities for many ppl, but ppl should use their legs and bikes when there are less distances.
Mostly driven distances are less than 4 kilometers!!! and thats possible to walk or with bike for everyone. and its healthy.
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MissingNo.

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2008, 08:42:21 pm »
Here's the thing:
Gas will not last forever, therefore even if we got gas prices how we wanted them now, they'd burst up a lot more than it is now. As Spex said, there aren't any alternatives as of yet. Hopefully one day there will be one, but we only have short term fixes to it. I agree with Oxygen. Even though I'm a fat, stereotypical American who likes cheeseburgers and NASCAR, I like walking a lot more. If you think it's too slow, then a bike should work.

Ruki

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2008, 08:50:19 pm »
You know, you can't walk or cycle to your job for 60 kms. Technically you can of course but if you are not ultra marathon cycler or you want to get somewhere in time, you must use a car, bus, train... as the alternative for cars I would say better choice is public transport. It narrows down the ammount of cars on the road.
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Spectro

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2008, 12:27:10 am »
I did a little research today on efficiencies after pondering some comments in here.

Hydrogen fueled cars would be significantly more efficient than our combustion engines- especially with regenerative braking, but there are better alternatives. A plant that extracts hydrogen from water through electrolysis has an efficiency around 70%. Once the fuels have actually been distributed through "stations", the actual fuel-to-wheel efficiency sits anywhere between 22-25%, compared to the 20% efficiency of our combustion engines. 2-5%, keep in mind, is a lot- but definitely not feasible as an alternative fuel worth switching to.

If you want to talk efficiency though, electric cars have no competition in the consumer market. Electric cars nab their electricity from power plants. Power plants (esp nuclear solutions) are extremely efficient. Nuclear power plants can get up to 98% efficiency. A beautiful number.

Here's a breakdown of the electric car efficiency:
Quote
10% losses between power plants and homes: factor 0.90
8% losses in small home-based AC/DC battery chargers: factor 0.92
20% losses for battery charging and discharging: factor 0.80
10% losses in the drive-train between battery and wheels: factor 0.90
10% bonus for regenerative braking: factor 1.10

Lands you at about 66%. BUT this technology would only be substantial for local runs, so cars meant for longer trips would have to employ hybrid technologies.


At the moment, I think our most promising and realistic option as an alternative transportation solution is electric-diesel hybrid technologies. We wouldn't have to change much economically since the gas stations already offer diesel. Gas station would just increase their number of diesel pumps to meet consumer demand- instead of having to employ entirely new technologies.

Quote
12% losses between oil well and filling station: factor 0.88
50% HHV efficiency of SOFC with internal reforming and Diesel fuel: factor 0.50
5% parasitic losses for the SOFC system: factor 0.95
10% electric losses in the drive-train between battery and wheels: factor 0.90
20% losses for battery charging and discharging: factor 0.80
10% bonus for regenerative braking: factor 1.10

With those numbers, the efficiency of a hybrid electric car running on diesel becomes 33%. That's 50% more efficient than combustion engines. Things get even tastier with the 90% reduction in emissions. Yeah, a ridiculously clear improvement by using fuel that's already widely available today. Wonder what we're waiting for..

Snap

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2008, 01:38:37 am »
in california the intoduced the electirc car not to but but to lease and they where huge i think chevy did it first and they where hgue celebrities had them normal pepple had the and loved them but then they decided they wouldn't let people buy or renew the lease and people started protesting and offering to buy them from chevy and the other companies who bought them but they wouldn't sell them the protesters had the money with them... then they started crushing the cars and i don't think they've been used again


got to close to the sun to god and they blew tot he ground
Oil encomy is the god here and we gotta learn to wait till everyone notices that there are other gods people belive in and start sing those Oil could be done and our enviroment could be wayy better then it is now...
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Gaston

Re: Gas Prices!
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2008, 01:52:04 pm »
I saw the Dubai video, and it's kind of fascinating. Kind of surealistic, but I think what's even more fascinating, is what happends here in Norway. We're quite a big oil nation, and we store up all oil money we earn, only using the interest we get annually, which isn't that little considering we have, I think almost 1000 billion euros in this fond, and continually growing at the highest rate in history due to the high oil prices. This is because we know that the oil business is living on loaned time, and when the thing collapses (it will), we will be prepared for the bad times when several thouasands lose their jobs because their companies can't produce oil any more, and we lose our number one export article.

Norway has progressed much like Dubai sort of, only that this process has taken almost 50 years rather than 20 years. This is because we live on all the industry the oil creates for us and how it helps us as a nation with a big commercial sea fleet.

Gas prices will rice, but the car is the least problem we have. The only thing it does, is cutting out the middle man so to speak. Most of the worlds energy production comes from non-renewable sources, or the big horror of it all; Nuclear power. Clean renewable energy sources is what our focus should be on. Unfortunatly the entire world economy is so dependant on Coal, Oil, gas etc that the moment we make a sudden switch, 50% of the worlds nations will more or less collapse. Thus the switch wil have to be made very gradually for most nations. This isn't happening though, due to the reluctance of letting oil, gas and coal go, and realizing that by using them we're only pushing the problem onto the next generations.
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